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Legal matters

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Brother’s actions and inheritance

177 replies

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:16

I’m not sure what to do about this situation which has blown up since my last surviving parent passed away recently.
Seven years ago, my DD ( asd) inherited some money ( about £100k). For various reasons, I entrusted DB to keep it for her in his account until DD became an adult as my own finances were shaky. I have texts showing that he agreed and that it was DD’s money. Our relationship fell apart during early Covid era and he demanded that I take the money back but I said I couldn’t right now but I would do soon. I also found out that DB was pissed off that he had not been left anything by that person at the time. DB and his DW are both magic circle trained lawyers with huge savings ( worth millions together). I am a lone parent living on DDs DLA basically ( my ex was abusive and fully absent ) and full time carer to DD.
Over the past three years DB and I would text about majorly important things. The lines of communication were open even if the socialising was over.
Fast forward to this year, DB was pissed off about me declining a family invite ( it might have been an olive branch invite but I never wanted to start socialising with them again). Without telling me, DB transferred my DD!s money into our widowed parent’s account electronically, giving neither of us a say. Parent ( terminally ill, elderly) said it was because DB was pissed off about declined invitation and told me to take the money back before they died.
Now I did not feel that DB had the right to do that without my consent so I said that as far as I was concerned, my money was still in their account along with the other hundreds of thousands they have in savings. DDs money was not distinguishable from the rest of their savings but it was sent to an account belonging to parent with nothing else in it. My DDs gift would also have been tax free by this stage.
Now, surviving parent has died and DB is being obnoxious about it, saying it is irrelevant and nothing to do with them and that they will talk to the one other beneficiary about the possibility of them agreeing to me getting it back ( DB and I are co executors).
My questions are:
Can DB actually argue that he had a right to do this to DD’s money without my consent? I wouldn’t have agreed to it and I would have taken it back but he never asked?
can I pursue DB to give the money back from his account. I think it was a really dumb and or mean thing for a lawyer to do
As a co executor, do I really need the permission of the third beneficiary who is not an executor for DD to have ‘her’ money back? I gave emails from parent about the money and wanting to transfer it and it states that the money is DD’s and the amount.
DB is putting pressure on me to resign as co executor. They have all the certificates, bank statements etc and won’t show me anything. There was a weekend of ugly emails where they mocked my DDs disability, my parenting, my lack of finances, not taking responsibility etc and not for the first time. I felt they were gaslighting me because I am actually right.
As executor, could I approach the bank with what I have and ask to be given control over the money? I know DB has applied for probate but I understand that you can sometimes sort things out before it is granted?
I’m really worried for DD’s future as that money was hers, it was tax free and it may be vital to her survival in the future. I worry that DB and SIL Will use it for paying death duties and carry on using their vast savings for their bunch of kids ( all privately educated, luxury holidays, recently dropped £10k on a Taylor Swift weekend, you get the idea).

OP posts:
onfiree · 11/09/2024 16:23

With the value involved, you need to get your own solicitor. It’s a bit odd that you’re surveying MN for advice, when your brother is an established solicitor - you need proper legal advice yourself.

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 11/09/2024 16:24

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:56

This is helpful, thanks. If the third beneficiary does not agree then I suppose DD will potentially get two thirds back. Unfortunately this has permanently severed my relationship with DB because I would never have done this to his DC even though he may be legally fine according to the consensus on here.

You have caused this mess so you should make up any loss of your daughter's money. That is what a good parent would do.

Dinoswearunderpants · 11/09/2024 16:24

What I'm reading from this is you didn't want the inheritance in your account as it would affect you're ability to claim benefits. Looks like the jokes on you now.

GivingitToGod · 11/09/2024 16:25

jackstini · 11/09/2024 13:29

You need a solicitor. This is far too complicated an issue

I don't get why you didn't put the money in an account in dd's name with you as signatory?

Struggling to understand why you left it with your brother all this time

My thoughts exactly but u can't fret over that decision now.
This is very complicated. If your brother won't transfer the 100k ( and I assume he won't), u need to engage with a solicitor

Blink282 · 11/09/2024 16:25

I think you were trying to hide assets as part of your divorce- whether you needed to do that or not I don’t know, because i’m not a lawyer or an accountant- but YOU should have found out.

Either you did, and you’re not being honest about that, or you didn’t- in which case history is in danger of repeating itself, because now you’re here asking strangers on a website for financial advice about a really complicated situation involving vast amounts of money.

With all the kindness I can muster: GET. PROPER. ADVICE. THIS. TIME.

InterIgnis · 11/09/2024 16:26

This is a clusterfuck.

He was taking a risk accepting it from you in the first place, and honestly shouldn’t have done it. That was foolish of him. He repeatedly asked you to take it back and you refused - that’s on you. Instead of keeping hold of it for longer he returned it to the place it came from.

Taking this to a solicitor with a ’please help me regain this money I tried to hide in order to evade taxation, hide assets during my divorce (potentially, depends on whether the money was given explicitly to your daughter or to you to use for your daughter) and fraudulently claim benefits’ probably isn’t going to go well for you tbh.

Soontobe60 · 11/09/2024 16:30

So, it seems like your DD was gifted a large sum of money from her grandparent, possibly for the avoidance of Inheritance Tax. It was in an account in her name, but for some unfathomable reason you asked your DB to hide it within his account. It absolutely sounds like you were trying to hide this money from someone - possibly as it also sounds like you are on benefits, possibly from your ex. This happened at least 7 years ago and the first grandparent has since died.
Your DB wanted your DD to have the money back but you declined so he paid it back into the surviving grandparent’s account. Now this grandparent (your parent) has died. So the 100K now forms part of their estate. As such, it must be administered under the terms of this parent’s will.
You had no right to move your DDs money via your brother in the first instance. He did absolutely the right thing as you would not give him details to turn the money to your DD. Having that amount of money in his account would have impacted on his financial situation. You have managed your DDs money very negligently, which is much worse considering she had SEN and could well have benefitted from that money over the last few years.
You’re clearly unreliable when dealing with other people’s finances. So no, the bank will not help you - they may even report you to for benefit fraud! Yore best bet is to rescind your executor role, let your DB sort out the whole mess and keep your hands off any inheritance your DD receives.

Jennaveeve · 11/09/2024 16:30

Entirely a problem of your own making. Mainly, I suspect, motivated to commit benefit fraud and secondly, because you were too lazy to sort it out when your brother, repeatedly, asked you to.

Tombero · 11/09/2024 16:32

sunseaandsoundingoff · 11/09/2024 15:30

Well, they should have paid tax on it both when it went into DB's account and when it went into the parent's account, since you can't gift anyone anything over £3k. I doubt they declared it either time.

I don’t think they needed to declare it at the time. They only needed to declare it if the gift giver died within 7 years of giving the gift.

In any case OP has brought this all upon themselves. What a tangled web we weave ….

Doltontweedle · 11/09/2024 16:33

LibertyStars · 11/09/2024 14:10

This is correct. Your brother held the money on trust for your daughter- it’s hers. So the options are-
—he moved it into this other account while still holding it on trust for DD. So it just gets paid back to your DD. Nothing to do with the other beneficiary.
-alternatively he can argue that when he moved it into the other account, he gave it to the account holder. That gift probably wouldn’t be effective and your DD can still get the money back OR she could claim against your brother for breach of trust and recover the money from him personally.

Suspect when you put it to your brother like this, he will agree that it can be paid back.

All that said, I agree with PP that this all sounds very strange and I wonder whether you’ve been attempting to hide the money for some reason. Obviously if you can’t go to court to recover the money from your brother without admitting to something illegal, you’re in a much weaker position practically.

No, where does she say he was a trustee of the money? You know that is an official, legal position? She’s basically had the money transferred to him. If he was dishonest as she is trying to make out, he wouldn’t have to give a penny back to her at all. I thought this thread was going to be about the brother stealing the money. Not helping the op by allowing her to commit benefit fraud, or whatever it is she’s doing

Pandapandapandapandapanda · 11/09/2024 16:38

There is always more to these types of arrangement.

This money has lost all its tax advantages now.

If your DB is a solicitor report him to his professional body.

Unless, he has something over you which he can use in retaliation.

YOYOK · 11/09/2024 16:40

Pandapandapandapandapanda · 11/09/2024 16:38

There is always more to these types of arrangement.

This money has lost all its tax advantages now.

If your DB is a solicitor report him to his professional body.

Unless, he has something over you which he can use in retaliation.

If she reports him, then I expect him to report her for whatever she was doing to hide money. Seems unhelpful advice.

TinyYellow · 11/09/2024 16:42

Our relationship fell apart during early Covid era and he demanded that I take the money back but I said I couldn’t right now but I would do soon.

I know that after it concluded that I could have taken it back but DB never offered so I assumed he did not mind looking after it any longer.

You said both things in the space of an hour and they can’t both be true, so which is it? It sounds like you did have the opportunity but you didn’t want to take responsibility for it and preferred to leave the responsibility with a brother you don’t even want to see.

He had every right to give your child money to her grandparent to look after and if that means you end up losing some of it, that’s your fault not his, especially as he is still willing to help you. Your dd will still benefit from a significant amount of money, so you should probably pick your battles carefully.

SwiftiesVSLestat · 11/09/2024 16:43

Pandapandapandapandapanda · 11/09/2024 16:38

There is always more to these types of arrangement.

This money has lost all its tax advantages now.

If your DB is a solicitor report him to his professional body.

Unless, he has something over you which he can use in retaliation.

Well he does.

She hid this money. At some point something pointed towards this money being Ops. As she was worried it would impact her divorce.

and, it appears, she refused to take the money so it didn’t impact her/her daughters benefits.

LibertyStars · 11/09/2024 16:45

Doltontweedle · 11/09/2024 16:33

No, where does she say he was a trustee of the money? You know that is an official, legal position? She’s basically had the money transferred to him. If he was dishonest as she is trying to make out, he wouldn’t have to give a penny back to her at all. I thought this thread was going to be about the brother stealing the money. Not helping the op by allowing her to commit benefit fraud, or whatever it is she’s doing

This is wrong, sorry. You don’t need a formal trust document to create a trust (although of course you can use one). If they agreed that he was holding the money for the daughter then he held it in trust.

WallaceinAnderland · 11/09/2024 16:47

If the money really was for your DD and you gave it away, she could report it as theft. If the police get involved it might prompt your DB to get it back for her.

However, there are all sorts of tax implications with that amount of money moving from you, to your brother, to the grandparent, back to your brother, back to you and then to your DD.

This is going to cost you a lot of money to put right via legal routes unless your DB agrees to co-operate.

SockFluffInTheBath · 11/09/2024 16:48

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:57

It was a PET so wouldn’t have been as person survived the maximum time

In the OP you’ve tried to make out banking is beyond you, but you seem quite savvy here. You give the distinct impression you’ve been trying to hide the money, and your chickens have simply come home to roost.

Newbutoldfather · 11/09/2024 16:48

@TinyYellow ,

‘Our relationship fell apart during early Covid era and he demanded that I take the money back but I said I couldn’t right now but I would do soon.’

Yes, I don’t understand why OP couldn’t have taken the money back. Why not? It is a simple matter of a bank transfer.

But it sounds like OP is the Cinderella (either for real or soi-distant) of a very toxic wealthy family and it is hard to understand the details of the whys and wherefores. But she is entitled to her share of her parents’ estate and not some randomer continuing to live in her inheritance rent free.

And where is the adult daughter in all this? Isn’t she desperate to get her hands on the money she has been gifted? It is 100k after all.

So many mysteries! I wonder if the OP will come back and enlighten us.

FluffMagnet · 11/09/2024 16:50

Another case of weaponised incompetence because there is a solicitor in the family to do all the leg work.

The money should have been in an account in your daughter's name. Is there a solicitor dealing with the probate for your parents? If not it might be an idea for the estate to hire one, so you can claim on behalf of your daughter to have the sum held on trust returned to her (it shouldn't form part of the estate) and to mediate the sale issue, if you are unable to agree with your brother.

Brutally, stop expecting family members to do your mental load and utilise Google. Also, solicitors are not there to solve your problems for free. Google a pro-bono service or Citizen's Advice if you cannot afford to pay for advice.

Stopbeingawalkoverandwalk · 11/09/2024 16:51

Doltontweedle · 11/09/2024 16:33

No, where does she say he was a trustee of the money? You know that is an official, legal position? She’s basically had the money transferred to him. If he was dishonest as she is trying to make out, he wouldn’t have to give a penny back to her at all. I thought this thread was going to be about the brother stealing the money. Not helping the op by allowing her to commit benefit fraud, or whatever it is she’s doing

"Trust" isn't just a formal, legal arrangement, it's an assumption that the law makes in certain circumstances. For example, a "constructive" trust might arise in this case if the £100k is in the legal possession of the brother or the parents' estate (through a bank account in their name), but it would be unconscionable for them to assert legal ownership because of the intentions of the parties when it came into the possession of the prima facie legal owner.

Everyone going on about benefit fraud, IHT, depriving the ex of community assets etc - none of that matters wrt the question of the legal ownership of that £100k. Yes, the OP may have a case to answer regarding those things, but none of that justifies the money being kept from the person who actually owns it .

MichaelandKirk · 11/09/2024 16:52

Kush - getting straight to the point. Did you want this money with your brother to avoid any sanctions on benefits which wouldnt have happened as you could have opened in your daughters name. Unless its my small brain something is off here.

Your brother offered the money back a few times and you refused? Just why?

GladBlueSlug · 11/09/2024 16:54

I worry that DB and SIL Will use it for paying death duties and carry on using their vast savings for their bunch of kids ( all privately educated, luxury holidays, recently dropped £10k on a Taylor Swift weekend, you get the idea).

They’ve been trying to get you to take the money for SEVEN years!? You sound jeslous as fuck.

Parent ( terminally ill, elderly) said it was because DB was pissed off about declined invitation and told me to take the money back before they died.

Yet, you didn’t. They didn’t get to die with peace in mind because of you.

Pandapandapandapandapanda · 11/09/2024 16:55

YOYOK · 11/09/2024 16:40

If she reports him, then I expect him to report her for whatever she was doing to hide money. Seems unhelpful advice.

Did you miss the last 2 sentences in my post before calling me unhelpful?

Seems like you did 😂! Maybe?

Below are the last two sentences.

‘ If your DB is a solicitor report him to his professional body.

Unless, he has something over you which he can use in retaliation.’

scotstars · 11/09/2024 16:57

Why was the money not in a trust account for your daughter? Giving it to your brother to mind was a very dangerous move he could have spent it or if he had died it would have formed part of his estate!
Is it safe to assume you were worried it would affect your entitlement to benefit if it was in an account you /DD could access?

PrincessofWells · 11/09/2024 17:01

Mrsttcno1 · 11/09/2024 14:22

You’ve really fucked up here and legally you have absolutely no leg to stand on here. You had multiple opportunities, demands even, to take it back.

This is legally incorrect. Please don't post crap on the legal matters forum, leave it to people who do have a clue.