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Legal matters

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Brother’s actions and inheritance

177 replies

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:16

I’m not sure what to do about this situation which has blown up since my last surviving parent passed away recently.
Seven years ago, my DD ( asd) inherited some money ( about £100k). For various reasons, I entrusted DB to keep it for her in his account until DD became an adult as my own finances were shaky. I have texts showing that he agreed and that it was DD’s money. Our relationship fell apart during early Covid era and he demanded that I take the money back but I said I couldn’t right now but I would do soon. I also found out that DB was pissed off that he had not been left anything by that person at the time. DB and his DW are both magic circle trained lawyers with huge savings ( worth millions together). I am a lone parent living on DDs DLA basically ( my ex was abusive and fully absent ) and full time carer to DD.
Over the past three years DB and I would text about majorly important things. The lines of communication were open even if the socialising was over.
Fast forward to this year, DB was pissed off about me declining a family invite ( it might have been an olive branch invite but I never wanted to start socialising with them again). Without telling me, DB transferred my DD!s money into our widowed parent’s account electronically, giving neither of us a say. Parent ( terminally ill, elderly) said it was because DB was pissed off about declined invitation and told me to take the money back before they died.
Now I did not feel that DB had the right to do that without my consent so I said that as far as I was concerned, my money was still in their account along with the other hundreds of thousands they have in savings. DDs money was not distinguishable from the rest of their savings but it was sent to an account belonging to parent with nothing else in it. My DDs gift would also have been tax free by this stage.
Now, surviving parent has died and DB is being obnoxious about it, saying it is irrelevant and nothing to do with them and that they will talk to the one other beneficiary about the possibility of them agreeing to me getting it back ( DB and I are co executors).
My questions are:
Can DB actually argue that he had a right to do this to DD’s money without my consent? I wouldn’t have agreed to it and I would have taken it back but he never asked?
can I pursue DB to give the money back from his account. I think it was a really dumb and or mean thing for a lawyer to do
As a co executor, do I really need the permission of the third beneficiary who is not an executor for DD to have ‘her’ money back? I gave emails from parent about the money and wanting to transfer it and it states that the money is DD’s and the amount.
DB is putting pressure on me to resign as co executor. They have all the certificates, bank statements etc and won’t show me anything. There was a weekend of ugly emails where they mocked my DDs disability, my parenting, my lack of finances, not taking responsibility etc and not for the first time. I felt they were gaslighting me because I am actually right.
As executor, could I approach the bank with what I have and ask to be given control over the money? I know DB has applied for probate but I understand that you can sometimes sort things out before it is granted?
I’m really worried for DD’s future as that money was hers, it was tax free and it may be vital to her survival in the future. I worry that DB and SIL Will use it for paying death duties and carry on using their vast savings for their bunch of kids ( all privately educated, luxury holidays, recently dropped £10k on a Taylor Swift weekend, you get the idea).

OP posts:
BobbyBiscuits · 11/09/2024 13:55

Before I fully read your OP, I thought this might have been a sorry tale of your brother pinching the money. So I'm glad it's not that.
If he no longer wished to be the custodian of it, for whatever reason, then I'm presuming he's within his rights to put it somewhere else. He's not stopping you getting it, in fact it seems he wants you to take it off his hands. Surely a trust or something in your daughter's name would've been easier than involving your brother. Somewhat unwillingly on his part.
It all sounds pretty complicated and stressful though. Definitely seek legal advice.

Hoppinggreen · 11/09/2024 13:55

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:52

DD was a child, now a young adult. It was a lifetime transfer by an elderly relative , I should not have said “inherited” as confusing.

Is it subject to IHT then?
Was it an attempt to avoid it or some other form of taxation I wonder?

ThreeFeetTall · 11/09/2024 13:55

Did the bank close your DDs savings account? Why did they do this?

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:56

PenelopePitStrop · 11/09/2024 13:49

I suspect that at this stage you will do best by keeping your brother and other beneficiary as close as possible.

Apoloogise to your DB for leavjng the £ in his account after he twice asked you to take it back.
As executors I expect (IANAL) you are legally bound to distribute the estate in accordance with the will . And unfortunately the estate, on paper, would seem to include your DD’s £x

So havjng dine your best to make amends with your DB and having shown the messages between you and DB to other beneficiary, you can do a Deed of Variation whereby you all 3 agree that £100k from the estate goes to your Dd.

Tbis is a time for building bridges, offering and taking olive branches, however much it sticks in your craw, because basically you handed the ££ over with no protections or conditions.

Good luck

This is helpful, thanks. If the third beneficiary does not agree then I suppose DD will potentially get two thirds back. Unfortunately this has permanently severed my relationship with DB because I would never have done this to his DC even though he may be legally fine according to the consensus on here.

OP posts:
Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:57

Hoppinggreen · 11/09/2024 13:55

Is it subject to IHT then?
Was it an attempt to avoid it or some other form of taxation I wonder?

Edited

It was a PET so wouldn’t have been as person survived the maximum time

OP posts:
Miffylou · 11/09/2024 13:58

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:31

I know that I shouldn’t have trusted DB at all. I thought the relationship was something that it wasn’t. Is there a solicitor anybody could recommend who gives a free half an hour initial session? I have only limited resources and time but for DD’s sake I can’t simply walk away.

Your local Citizens Advice office should have a list of solicitors in your area who give free half-hour consultations. Alternatively, google something like "solicitors free consultation near me" and it will bring some up. (I’ve just tried it and it suggested several near me.) You will need to check that they deal with that sort of thing before you make an appointment, as different solicitors specialise in different areas of the law.

FeedingThem · 11/09/2024 13:58

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:34

I had/ still have no idea about how to open a trust. DB probably did but never helped or suggested it. Is it honestly the case that you can agree to look after somebody’s money, in writing, then dump it elsewhere without giving the chance to take it back?

He DID ask you to take it back. I assume you didn't want to because of it affecting means tested benefits.

I'm confused now though as to whom it is you think is getting the money? What does your parents will state about their assets?

WhyamIinahandcartandwherearewegoing · 11/09/2024 13:59

Wwyd2025 · 11/09/2024 13:35

I imagine op is on benefits and didn't want to close her claim having that much money but if they had sense they'd of googled how to open a account in DDs name which takes all of 5 seconds and done it...

Yep. DB tried to do her a favour and, as is usual, it’s come back to bite the favour giver…

WeightLossGoal2024 · 11/09/2024 13:59

This makes no sense. Were you trying to stop benefits being affected or something?

PrincessofWells · 11/09/2024 14:00

The money is still your daughters and has been since it was gifted to her so you don't need to do a variation. Distribute it to your daughter, just accounting for it as former trust from John Smith (whoever) now fully distributed.

WhyamIinahandcartandwherearewegoing · 11/09/2024 14:00

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:37

I am prepared to be told that I am wrong but I was going through a messy divorce and I was worried about DD’s money being raided by the other parent. I know that after it concluded that I could have taken it back but DB never offered so I assumed he did not mind looking after it any longer.

It’s not on him to offer, it’s on YOU to sort it out in a timely manner, which you have not.

Wwyd2025 · 11/09/2024 14:01

Never mind your DB, what about when your child is old enough that she finds out she's lost out on her money due to you being to lazy to look up how to make her own account,

Hoppinggreen · 11/09/2024 14:04

WhyamIinahandcartandwherearewegoing · 11/09/2024 14:00

It’s not on him to offer, it’s on YOU to sort it out in a timely manner, which you have not.

He asked you to take it back though.
As for the divorce issue I don't see how your EX could have taken DDs money
You say your brother is a lawyer so while I know lawyers CAN make mistakes I doubt its worth his career to do anything illegal

WallaceinAnderland · 11/09/2024 14:10

Are you saying it was a gift? If you gave it to your DB and he put it in his name, with your permission, I'm not sure that you can legally get it back. In effect, in your role as parent, you have gifted it to him.

You need to speak with a solicitor.

LibertyStars · 11/09/2024 14:10

PrincessofWells · 11/09/2024 14:00

The money is still your daughters and has been since it was gifted to her so you don't need to do a variation. Distribute it to your daughter, just accounting for it as former trust from John Smith (whoever) now fully distributed.

This is correct. Your brother held the money on trust for your daughter- it’s hers. So the options are-
—he moved it into this other account while still holding it on trust for DD. So it just gets paid back to your DD. Nothing to do with the other beneficiary.
-alternatively he can argue that when he moved it into the other account, he gave it to the account holder. That gift probably wouldn’t be effective and your DD can still get the money back OR she could claim against your brother for breach of trust and recover the money from him personally.

Suspect when you put it to your brother like this, he will agree that it can be paid back.

All that said, I agree with PP that this all sounds very strange and I wonder whether you’ve been attempting to hide the money for some reason. Obviously if you can’t go to court to recover the money from your brother without admitting to something illegal, you’re in a much weaker position practically.

Followtopic · 11/09/2024 14:14

You need to just suck it up and pay a solicitor. Free half hours are just sales pitches - lawyers don’t give away their expertise for nothing.

Make sure you have all the evidence before an appointment to save money. print everything out. And just pay up. Now is not the time to be cheap when so many mistakes have been made already by not taking proper professional advice. Your cheapness could cost your daughter 6 figures and you’re STILL trying to get round it. Just save up and pay up.

twomanyfrogsinabox · 11/09/2024 14:15

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:52

DD was a child, now a young adult. It was a lifetime transfer by an elderly relative , I should not have said “inherited” as confusing.

Were you trying to avoid tax inheritance tax on the gift if the relative died within seven years?

As I said above you could claim your DD is a creditor of the estate, ie, money should have been paid back to her the same as if she was a company that had done work on the house and not been paid yet. Whether you can prove that could be tricky, but if you have the paper trail to your DB and his acknowledgement of the transfer and an acknowledgement from the deceased that it was her money you may be able to, but it all seems far fetched. You need a solicitor.

Mrsttcno1 · 11/09/2024 14:22

You’ve really fucked up here and legally you have absolutely no leg to stand on here. You had multiple opportunities, demands even, to take it back.

Newbutoldfather · 11/09/2024 14:23

I think OP wanted to stop her daughter’s father from using the gift for his daughter while she was still a child or it might have changed the maintenance calculation.

Either way, trying to hide it away was fundamentally dishonest.

Having said that, she now needs to make her best effort to get the money back to her daughter (not sure whether her ex husband could claim any part, either).

A probate solicitor is probably the best place to start and she may need more specialist advice going forward.

newfriend05 · 11/09/2024 14:24

I'm guessing you didn't wanted the money in yours or your daughters account because you were both claiming benefits ... which would of shopped .. your brother was acting as your brother and not as a lawyer..if the money is now in "the pot " so to speak .. to claim it back your back at were you started .. you need to talk your brother around

twomanyfrogsinabox · 11/09/2024 14:27

It doesn't sound like this was any sort of legal trust, it was just more convenient (for some probably financial reason) for the money to be paid to the DB. He eventually did what he thought best and passed it on to her GF when he no longer wanted to keep it and her mother refused to take it off him. I think his responsibility has gone when her GF accepted it.

GladBlueSlug · 11/09/2024 14:34

Wwyd2025 · 11/09/2024 13:34

Why didn't you put your child's money into a savings bond in her name?! You'll need legal advice this is way too complicated.
I don't blame your brother in the slightest though.

Same here. All this is your own fault. I feel sorry for your brother. You sound like hard work in every aspect, making life difficult for everyone including the poor dying relative.

Richard1985 · 11/09/2024 14:34

I hope your brother also transferred the accrued interest on your daughters money or else you have cost her about £15k (on top of the potential £66k loss you are currently looking at)

From what you've said, it sounds like there is enough of a paper trail to justify transferring the money back to your daughter outside of the terms of the will but who knows what can of worms that will open

zingally · 11/09/2024 14:34

You need a solicitor to unpick this utterly bizarre mess.

What do you mean, he never asked for the money to be taken back by you? It reads like he repeatedly asked you to take it back.

Why on earth did you essentially give your brother £100K? Surely you had a bank account of your own? Or why not open one for your DD? Child bank accounts that require an adult signatory are a very common, easily accessible thing.

Unless you have a legal document naming brother as a trustee of this money, you've basically signed it over to him. It was legally his to do with as he wanted. And if that means moving it out into an elderly parents account, then that's within his rights.

You handed over £100K without any legal protections, relying entirely on your brothers good nature to safeguard it for you and hand it back at a time solely pleasing to you.

To have any chance of getting this money back, you need to a) speak to a solicitor/financial expert, or b) really swallow your gall and start bridge-building with your brother.

But this is entirely the product of your very strange actions. Good luck.

GladBlueSlug · 11/09/2024 14:35

Kushiyaki · 11/09/2024 13:31

I know that I shouldn’t have trusted DB at all. I thought the relationship was something that it wasn’t. Is there a solicitor anybody could recommend who gives a free half an hour initial session? I have only limited resources and time but for DD’s sake I can’t simply walk away.

No, he TOLD you to take the money. You refused. He is not the difficult one here, you are.