My son's mother wants to move abroad for a year and take him.

[Snurt]

Hi, just wondering if the collective wisdom of mumsnet could offer me some advice, hopefully it won't matter that technically speaking I'm more of a dad than a mum!

My son is 9, I was there when he was born and have been fully involved in his entire life, despite never having been in a relationship with his mother. Current arrangements are that he spends 5 nights out of every 14 with me. His mother has since married and has two other much younger children with her husband. Her husband's work want to send him to the US for a chunk of time, at the very minimum a year but it sounds like it could easily become a year and a half or two years. She wants to go, with all the children, offering skype and school holiday visits back. I am, as you'd imagine, not happy about this, both for the disruption of his schooling and my losing regular contact with him.

I know that I can legally prevent them from taking my son, as I have parental responsibility, unless they get a court order - what are the chances that they could get a court order in this sort of situation? They would cite his relationship with his half-brothers, and that his step-father would lose his job if he doesn't go (I don't know if this is true but it's how it's been presented to me).

Should I be looking to get a prohibited steps order, or is my having parental responsibility and making clear my lack of consent for him to go enough? We have so far managed to deal with things without involving lawyer/courts, so there are no residency orders in place.

Any advice on the legalities or feedback on whether my stance is reasonable or not welcomed.

legalities aside, have you asked your son what he wants to do?

i guess the options are for you to keep him residing with you and "offer skype and school holiday visits "

what does your son want?

you are not stoping the stepfather from going and taking teh job - you are only presumably suggesting your son stays in uk with you and visits with mum...

i dont see why not.

She may get a court order - or may not. It depends on what the judge decides. You need proper legal advice. Go to the Resolution website, or better still the Reunite website www.reunite.org/specialistlawyers.asp

I've not had a proper conversation with him about it yet, partly because I was only told yesterday, but also because I don't think it would be fair to put him in a position of having to choose between seeing me and seeing his mother/step-father/brothers, that would just be a horrible position for him to be in knowing that whatever he chose would upset someone. I have no doubt that given the choice of his mother etc not moving, that would be what he'd chose. I have said I would be happy for him to reside with me, yes, but I can't imagine his mother agreeing to that.

I've found the Resolution site, thanks, will have a look at the reunite one too.

He shouldn't be made aware that either decision will upset someone otherwise that's far too much guilt for a young boy

If it's only for a year and you can still have regular contact it may be a great experience for him, it's not a critical school time (eg GCSEs) and if you refuse through the courts he will miss out and know that you stopped him, so long as you are prepared to deal with any fallout from that

Personally I think you should think more about what would be best for your son, than what you want (I don't mean that as harshly as it probably sounds)

He's a bright 9 year old, he'll figure out that whatever he decides will upset someone (and likely himself) without being told, which is why I don't think putting him in a position of having to decide is at all fair.

I have no confidence that it would be only for a year, they've suggested it would be 'no more than 2', but I don't feel in a position to trust them. Even if it were just a year, a year is a huge amount of time in the life of a 9 or 10 year old boy. I have given it considerable thought, and I don't think I am just being selfish.

My personal opinion is that his step-father, if it really would mean losing his job, should look for other work, as that's what I'd do if my job was relocated away from my son, but obviously I have no say in what they choose to do. I would love to avoid the courts and keep things amicable between us, as I think it is much better for children if that's the case, but I fear that in this case that won't be possible.

"if you refuse through the courts he will miss out and know that you stopped him, so long as you are prepared to deal with any fallout from that"

I agree BUT your relationship with your sun will weaken. Having skype contact and promises of visit (how realistic it is really to have regular trips across the pond?) are all fine, but it will never be a substitute for 5 days out of 2 weeks personal contact. Speaking from personal experiences.

I would fight it, because if you do the job transfer may be cancelled altogether. If you don't 2 years may easily stretch into 10. Even if it does not such a long term trip abroad, being a great fun experience as it is, is no substitute for having a loving parent in the child's life.

sun=son sorry

No I don't mean let him have the final decision, but I do think your actions should be based at least in part on what your son wants to do

It sounds a tough situation to be in, I hope you manage to find some kind of amicable solution

Another perspective...

My brother moved to Hong Kong leaving his 10 year old here in the UK wit his ex about four years ago. His daughter is now nearly 13.

He returns to the UK for one week in four (now leaving his wife in HK). So most months (ex girlfriend dependent ) he sees his daughter for a complete weekend and one day of the other. He also sees her during the holidays and she now flies to HK to see him.

Now I realize that this is a very expensive option only possible in his case because his company pays for him to return and spend one week in four or thereabouts in the UK office and would not be possible for many.

When he first went out use of skype etc was not great (I think many kids struggle to be honest) but their relationship is the best it could possibly be. His daughter adores him and is just beginning to realize that when she does not see him it is more often to do with her mother's 'unhelpfulness' rather than her father's absence.

I am sorry I do know this is off at a tangent and not directly helpful but I wanted to say the kids have a habit of growing up and realising which parent most wants them to be happy. This has certainly been the case for my niece. I agree your son is too young to choose and should worse come to worse and he be whisked off to the USA for a couple of years do emphasise that you will miss him but think it is best for him to live with his mum and have this opportunity. He will soon see that you are sad about it without you having to say a thing except 'hang around'!

If your son goes to the USA it is not ideal but it need not be a disaster eitehr. Would between the three adults you be able to afford to see him every holiday? That would be every six weeks or so depending on school in that part of the States? There have been long periods when that was all my brother saw his daughter and as I said they are very very close and their relationship is fantastic.

Get legal advice but do not despair.

If he goes to the States then the mother usually would be required to pay the cost of flights etc.

If my family had moved to the States for a couple of years when I was 9 and I wasn't allowed to go because one parent wouldn't allow it, I would have been really upset and furious.

"My personal opinion is that his step-father, if it really would mean losing his job, should look for other work"

That is totally unreasonable.

My sister moved to Spain with her daughter. Her ex was not happy, but the dd visits him for automn half term, every second Christmas (they alternate Christmas and New year), winter half term, Easter break, and she is with him for 4 weeks over summer.

Judging by the fuss her ex has kicked up over access, they feel totally blackmailed by him, as he cannot stop himself from demanding more and more time, setting the agenda for her visits, because he "loves" her and wants to see her so much.

6 years down the line, my niece is at the end of her tether with her dad, because of all the fuss, all the demands (this started when she was 9 btw), all the arguing over dates, and all the threats that she has to come and live with him, through court action, unless her mum do as her ex says.

I would advice you to be very cautious. My sisters ex's insistence to keep battling for more visitation, threatening to not sign passports unless she spends one extra week over summer (so that my sister gets NO holiday time with her daughter) is now finally paying off. She hates her dad. The only reason why she still sees him (latest court ruling is that she should decide where she lives, how often she sees him, even though she is now 16 he is contesting this ruling) is because her aunts and uncles wont make any arrangements to see her, unless she stays with her dad on all the holidays he wants. And she loves her cousins. But she has decided, the moment she is 18, she will cut him from her life. Not because he isnt nice, and well meaning towards her, but because he has made her life a misery over access, visitation and holidays. And travel costs.

Let your son go. Arrange to see him as often as possible. Dont give him the uncertainty about where he lives, and to whom he belongs the most.

Just BE there for him, from a distance, and shower him with gifts and love, letters, skype, and attention. Dont break him away from his primary carer and his family.

He's 9, and you say bright, you don't need to worry about disrupting his education. He'll learn far more from travelling and living abroad than he would remaining at home and doing SATs.

Besides holidays are long. You could have a terrific time with him exploring America and long summers back in the UK. Tell him in no uncertain terms you'll miss him and will do everything you can to make the times you can see him lots of fun. Buy him a laptop with a built in webcam and skype and sign up to one of those phone deals whereby you can call each other for next to nothing. And let him feel free to be excited about the move.

Could you buy him an enormous map of the USA and take it round to your ex wife (for your son) and tell her you're frightened about losing contact/touch ... but you can see life has presented her with a difficult situation but of course you're willing to help make it work so long as you gives certain assurances? Between you, you can sort this out, without resorting to the nonsense of asking a 9 year old which continent he'd like to live on and with which parent -- that's a horrible thing to do. Your son isn't a chattle to be argued over.

You've had a shock. This news is brand new, give it time for you all to get used to it. Good luck.

Sometimes in these situations it's helpful to work backwards: there are only three possibly outcomes?

1. that you separate him from his mother and siblings and he comes to live with you whilst they go off to the states for 1 year +?

2. that you prevent them all going via the family court?

3. that they all go?

4. that you also go to the Us, Snurt.

or 4) You also get a job in the USA?

Quint LOL and snap!

liking your way of thinking, swedes

It may be unreasonable, spidookly, and I'm not saying I want to force him to look for another job, I'm just saying that if I were in that sort of position, that is what I would do. Finding another job is not the end of the world, family ties are more important. To me, expecting a parent to deal with being separated from their child is far more unreasonable.

I understand your warning, Quintessential, and that does sound like a particularly nasty situation. Perhaps it's a situation that wouldn't have arisen if his daughter hadn't been moved to another country in the first place, which isn't to defend his unreasonable behaviour, but it is an extremely emotive subject. How many parents would really be willing to just let their child go in that way?

Avoid the courts - even if you win a legal battle (unlikely imo) you will have lost on all other grounds. I bet his mum is feeling guilty about this and excited for them all too. This is something you need to cope with, not your son. Bend over backwards to help make it work for your son and make it clear that this is for HIS sake not yours or hers. It is a great opportunity for your son too you know.

And i am a step parent who has moved around to keep near to my dh's ex as it is in the best interests of the children though not always our own best interests(but what makes them happy, makes us happy too!)

I am not going to answer your question, regards to why my sister moved. It is not interesting. But it has led to a better life for both my sister and her daughter. They both live in a place they love, and have better quality of life. Ex cannot see this. And he seems to deliberately want to cause hurt and upset for both of them.

But it is of course your choice if you want to turn your child into the axe to beat his mother with.

"Finding another job is not the end of the world, family ties are more important"

It's not that simple an equation though, is it?

What this job and this opportunity might mean for this family (which includes your son, remember) is important.

You really want this man to make career decisions based entirely around you?

"To me, expecting a parent to deal with being separated from their child is far more unreasonable."

So it's all about you, then? Not what your son might want, or enjoy or benefit from?

Swedes has some really good advice there - you have 4 possible outcomes. Which of them seems to you the best (for everyone involved)?

Are you really going to the guy who stops a family taking an opportunity like this because of how it's going to affect you?

Of course if they go you'll miss your son, and he'll miss you. But it's short term and there are things you can do to make sure that the time you do spend together, and the contact you do have, is special.

I would heed baby's advice about the legal situation changing should they not return after 2 year.

"Finding another job is not the end of the world, family ties are more important"

Family ties with YOU are more important?

Because what you seem to be proposing is that he is losing family ties with mum, step dad and siblings.

So, on the assumption that family ties are important, you should let him stay with the family he lives with most.