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Legal matters

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you have any legal concerns we suggest you consult a solicitor.

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Original poster

My son's mother wants to move abroad for a year and take him.

237 replies

Snurt · 09/05/2011 12:31

Hi, just wondering if the collective wisdom of mumsnet could offer me some advice, hopefully it won't matter that technically speaking I'm more of a dad than a mum!

My son is 9, I was there when he was born and have been fully involved in his entire life, despite never having been in a relationship with his mother. Current arrangements are that he spends 5 nights out of every 14 with me. His mother has since married and has two other much younger children with her husband. Her husband's work want to send him to the US for a chunk of time, at the very minimum a year but it sounds like it could easily become a year and a half or two years. She wants to go, with all the children, offering skype and school holiday visits back. I am, as you'd imagine, not happy about this, both for the disruption of his schooling and my losing regular contact with him.

I know that I can legally prevent them from taking my son, as I have parental responsibility, unless they get a court order - what are the chances that they could get a court order in this sort of situation? They would cite his relationship with his half-brothers, and that his step-father would lose his job if he doesn't go (I don't know if this is true but it's how it's been presented to me).

Should I be looking to get a prohibited steps order, or is my having parental responsibility and making clear my lack of consent for him to go enough? We have so far managed to deal with things without involving lawyer/courts, so there are no residency orders in place.

Any advice on the legalities or feedback on whether my stance is reasonable or not welcomed.

OP posts:

Ormirian · 09/05/2011 21:13

Agree with colditz.

makeminemango · 09/05/2011 21:13

I would recommend good legal advice, even if it's to know where you stand. In the past I've looked into moving from the uk with my kids in case of relationship breakdown. I was advised that English case law favours the mother so if you were to go down the expensive & painful legal route it may not be to your advantage- from the outset

Beamur · 09/05/2011 21:16

My DP would not give permission for his kids to be taken abroad for a year or two. But I don't know where you stand legally. Our stepkids are now 16 and 17 though, so this kind of thing is no longer an issue.

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:16

I'm afraid I'd have to go to court over this.

Because whilst a 9-year-old may resent it at the time, an adult will look back and say, 'My father did everything he could to fight to keep me near him.'

This child is not a US national, nor are the parents. The US, however, will respect UK family court decisions and bounce back any child removed there without permission.

My h, a UK national, might have to take DS back to the UK from the US on his own a few days earlier than we go back due to a specialist appointment DS needs and, because DS is a US/UK national and I am, too, I have to provide a notarised letter stating DH has permission to remove the child.

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:18

Get a solicitor. NOW.

Swedes2 · 09/05/2011 21:23

Colditz - Yes, I know. The move thing was all about control (of me actually) and nothing to do with his children who he would see with exactly the same frequency and duration. Life is terribly inconvenient sometimes. We need to ask the OP again what outcome he wants because each outcome will have consequences thay may just be more damaging to his relationship with his son than the son actually going to the USA for a year.

I don't think anyone in this scenario is to blame; life is just very complicated when stepfamilies are involved.

ballstoit · 09/05/2011 21:25

Ny ex sees DC about once a month. I still wouldnt want to move them to the US, that would effectively end any chance of a relationship with him. I believe that children thrive if they have good, regular contact with their parents (abuse excepted obviously). It would be very difficult to have a parent/child relationship with your DS if he lived in the US.

When ex and DSS's mum split she was prohibited from moving them a couple pf counties away as it would interfere with their contact with their Dad. I dont know how usual this is, just mentioning it.

The best scenario as far as I'm concerned is for the status quo to remain. I agree with OP, family comes before work. It is not in the boys best interests to move to another country. I cant see his mum or stepdad paying for 3 return flights several times a year, or spending hours flying back and forth for him to see his dad.

Snorbs · 09/05/2011 21:25

Honestly? I'd move heaven and earth to try to stop my DCs being moved abroad in this kind of situation. Even with Skype and school holiday visits it will be impossible to be an active and involved parent if your child is three or four thousand miles away.

ballstoit · 09/05/2011 21:26

Swedes - which outcome would be more damaging than having a crap relationship with one parent? And what if it's not just a year?

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:29

'We need to ask the OP again what outcome he wants because each outcome will have consequences thay may just be more damaging to his relationship with his son than the son actually going to the USA for a year.'

At least a year. That she's telling him.

Short of abuse, I can't see what is more damaging to a 9-year-old child than to effectively have a parent removed from his life bar a few holidays.

That is why there is zero way I would entertain this possibility any further without involving a solicitor.

I cannot imagine having my child taken away in this manner. There is no way in hell I would permit it. None. I show my children that I will go to bat for them, again and again and again. They don't have to ask, that is my job.

Swedes2 · 09/05/2011 21:30

ballstoit - I don't think geographical distance results in a crap relationship. 9 is old enough to understand that your dad can't come and see you every Wednesday. You can have a perfectly crap relationship with someone you see every day.

The child ending up in therapy as an adult because of his warring parents is a strong possibility.

baabaapinksheep · 09/05/2011 21:32

Why is the OP being called selfish, when the step-father is the one who wants to split up a family for a job?!

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:34

The child ending up in therapy as an adult because of his warring parents is a strong possibility.

This his mother needs to grow up and realise that when you choose to have a child with someone, that means sacrificing what you want to do sometimes.

I have a friend, a Kiwi, who's been in the UK 15 years longer than she'd have wanted. She shrugs, 'Hey, I had a kid with a Brit and then our relationship ended. His father wants to be involved. A child needs to know his dad. I never did, because mine fucked off. So there was no way I was going to deny my child close contact with a good father.'

Tough shit. I often think about moving back to my home country. But my husband doesn't want to, and it wouldn't be best for our kids. So I have to suck it up because that's what goes with making adult decisions like having kids.

Swedes2 · 09/05/2011 21:43

Expat - Fair enough. We're very different. I would say live and let live. Try and enable everyone to live life to the full. Be kind, respectful and supportive to your children and your ex and her/his new family. And then it will all be alright.

If the OP had been the mother, I would probably have said what gives you the right to remove your child from his father? So I'm not being one-sidedly silly about this.

ballstoit · 09/05/2011 21:43

Swedes - you contradict yourself. If 5 nights a fortnight does not result in a meaningful reltionship (as you argued earlier), how would 3 or 4 weeks a year?

I wouldnt be happy for my DC to see me only 10% of the year, dont think many parents would tbh, whether they gave birth or have a penis makes no odds in my view.

Swedes2 · 09/05/2011 21:47

ballstoit - I didn't say 5 nights a fortnight wasn't a meaningful relationship. I merely said it wasn't evenly shared as suggested by the OP.

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:48

'Be kind, respectful and supportive to your children and your ex and her/his new family. And then it will all be alright.'

She's not being very respectful. It's not very respectful to remove your child thousands of miles away from a parent because of a job. It's not very supportive of her child's relationship with his father, either.

RitaMorgan · 09/05/2011 21:50

It sounds like a great opportunity for the step-father, but any benefit for the child is outweighed by the loss of a meaningful relationship with his father imo.

If it was my child, I wouldn't allow it.

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:50

'If the OP had been the mother, I would probably have said what gives you the right to remove your child from his father?'

Yet you seem to think this father should just 'live and let live' and not doing so means he doesn't deserve a nice shiny halo like yours for being so 'respectful' and 'supportive' of his ex's husband's job prospect.

Interesting.

ChippingIn · 09/05/2011 21:52

Snurt - I agree with you. They should have put him first and Step Dad should have said he wasn't able to go to the States at this point in time due to his DSS needing to remain in the UK. End of.

Under different circumstances (if you were in a relationship with his mum and you were all going) I'd agree this is a great opportunity ... but you aren't and so even if it's a good opportunity for him in some ways - effectively losing his Dad to get it is too high a price.

And before someone brings up parents in the forces - it is not the same.

I don't get some poster sometimes - I really don't - if you were posting that you were going for a year, maybe 2, maybe more... because work have asked you if you want to go, you would be being called all the names under the sun

I would tell her that you don't want him to go, that you hope you they will respect your decision, but if not you are prepared to take it to court.

I would get legal advice anyway and see what you need to do to stop them being able to do this against your wishes and put in place what you can.

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:53

ChippingIn's last two paragraphs, spot on.

fivegomadindorset · 09/05/2011 21:56

I have a friend who was sort of in the same position, he married an American and when they split up she returned to America with daughter who I think was of a similar age, she then came over here every holiday. It worke dout just fine.

QuintessentialPains · 09/05/2011 21:57

I think Colditz, Expat and ChippingIn, among others, have very persuasive arguments.

I should not let my sisters experience with her narcissist psychopathic ex cloud the issue at all. My apologies.

I would not be able to see my children move so far away from me.

bemybebe · 09/05/2011 21:58

Agree expat and chipping...

expatinscotland · 09/05/2011 21:59

Because he agreed to that, fivegomad.

Believe me, if he had not agreed to it, she would not have been able to remove the children from the UK.

This parent does not agree to his child being removed.

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