My son's mother wants to move abroad for a year and take him.

[Snurt]

Hi, just wondering if the collective wisdom of mumsnet could offer me some advice, hopefully it won't matter that technically speaking I'm more of a dad than a mum!

My son is 9, I was there when he was born and have been fully involved in his entire life, despite never having been in a relationship with his mother. Current arrangements are that he spends 5 nights out of every 14 with me. His mother has since married and has two other much younger children with her husband. Her husband's work want to send him to the US for a chunk of time, at the very minimum a year but it sounds like it could easily become a year and a half or two years. She wants to go, with all the children, offering skype and school holiday visits back. I am, as you'd imagine, not happy about this, both for the disruption of his schooling and my losing regular contact with him.

I know that I can legally prevent them from taking my son, as I have parental responsibility, unless they get a court order - what are the chances that they could get a court order in this sort of situation? They would cite his relationship with his half-brothers, and that his step-father would lose his job if he doesn't go (I don't know if this is true but it's how it's been presented to me).

Should I be looking to get a prohibited steps order, or is my having parental responsibility and making clear my lack of consent for him to go enough? We have so far managed to deal with things without involving lawyer/courts, so there are no residency orders in place.

Any advice on the legalities or feedback on whether my stance is reasonable or not welcomed.

So HypeAversion I don't see how you can relate or empathise with the OP.

Apart from, yes children can be legally taken from a parent on the decision of the other parent who considers the child their own.

The point i was trying to make, based on what i was advised at the time, is that if the OP chooses to make a stand, the outcome could be very positive for him. That my solicitor had said there wouldn't be a mother-bias in court regarding this issue. I am sure many father's have a fear (and may have experience) of this bias. I was genuinely trying to be helpful.

It's never 2 years. That's what everyone says to appease family when they move overseas- there's a thread in "living overseas" when the advice to the OP is exactly that- "just say it's for a year or two and give them time to get used to it". If they have to move because it's such a great opportunity that it's worth separating the OP from his son, they're not exactly going to fall over themselves to move back are they?

I haven't read the whole thread, but have dipped in and out over the last few days.

OP: how friendly are you and your ex? is it at all likely that she owuld use this oportunity ot weaken (further) the relationship between you and your son?

my dh moved abroad for a job when his children were a similar age. he had always been hands on (EOW, one night midweek, but had also always had to travel a lot ofr his job, so these did get moved about. he did his best, within the constraints of his job, to make up the times he missed (taking into account his ex's/his children's lives too) - just saying this for background)

when the overseas job cameup, he talked it through with everyone. he woudl, of course, not be able to fulfill the EOW or midweek evenings, but the job would mean he was back in the UK every month (at least), and there was the chance of increased school holiday times (he had only been "allowed" a 2 week holiday once a year at that point - he wanted to increase htis)

so, the end result was that his ex agreed to a new contact schedule: a long (Thurs-Mon) weekend once a month when dh was back, plus extra school holiday times. (2 weeks in the summer, one at Christmas, one at Easter. half terms "ad hoc")

dh, on the basis of this agreement, went ahead and took the job (and didnt get anyhtign in writing!)

as soon as he was abroad, the ex reneged. whenever dh tried ot book in for his weekend when back, she was either uncontctable until too late, or the children were busy (doign routine things, eg team sports which dh woudl have been happy ot take them along to) and couldn't see him. the extra school holidays didn't happen either (they were always meant ot, but somehting always ballsed it up)

dh ended up in a protracted and costly court case, fighting to gain the agreement he had made before he went, with his ex throwing it all back in his face.

Now I know you are not the one moving, OP - but is it at all possible that your ex woudl end up making things difficult for access if she did go abroad with your son?

there are lots of posters here saying "you cannot weaken the relationship if it is strong in the first place". well, I am afraid oyu can. dh's children were never aware that their mother had prevented him seeing them - she told them he was the busy one, who hadn't arranged contact "never mind, maybe next time" etc.

it can all go so wrong, especially if one side ends up with too much "power" and "control" in organising the contact.

"In short taking this to court need not cost you the earth and could bugger the step fathers chance at the job anyway."

Anyone who would put a family through a court case hoping to fuck things up for them like that is a bad parent indeed.

Jesus.

Thanks for the various supportive messages.

I've just talked to my son directly about it, even mentioning the subject is enough to bring him to the point of tears. He pretty clearly has no desire to go, beyond not wanting to be separated from part of his family, and he's been told he's 'almost certainly' going.

I'm pretty livid at them for putting him through this.

You need to see a solicitor, Snurt. As soon as possible. You also need to let the mother know how you feel about this.

She cannot make a unilateral decision to relocate a child to another country without your permission, and she's being extraordinarily selfish.

Let your son know that you will also support him and youwill be there for him no matter what, that way he won;t feel the pressure of your upset.

BTW will he step dad lose his job if he doesn;t go to the states or is this just a fab opportunity? If the latter, then I think they are being very selfish.

You really need to sit down away from all the children to have a clam (as muich as it can be) discussion about it all.

Good luck.

You really need to find a solicitor because it sounds like she's already decided and isn't interested in staying here. Ask around here for recommendations, specifying area. Or visit the Law Society's web page.

The only reasonable course of action is for you to invite your son, in the presence of his mother, to stay with you in England when his mother, stepfather and half-brothers go to live in the US. You should fully expect him to decline, and you must be supportive of his decision.

Talk like that, "almost certainly," is very foolish, I think. Coz if I were you, even if I'd been prepared to debate it and be reasonable, that would seriously hack me off!! I would be Having Words with his mother. Pronto.

'The only reasonable course of action is for you to invite your son, in the presence of his mother, to stay with you in England when his mother, stepfather and half-brothers go to live in the US. You should fully expect him to decline, and you must be supportive of his decision.'

He's nine, not 19.

It would be unkind to put the lad on the spot like that, his input is needed, but all the adults need to make the decisions here.

I wanted to wish you good luck op

I have to dsagree with Bonsoir. IMO it is definitely not the right thing to do. It is totally unfair to expect a 9y child to make such a decision and epecially to have to do it in front of the people he loves, knowing that he will upset one whoever he choses.

You need to get legal advice on what you actually can do. It does sound as it is rather a done deal rather than subject to discussion and agreement.

Snurt, would you be willing and able to care for him full time while his mum is away? That's another issue to consider.

I have to say that Payne VS Payne seems

As for Bonsoir's suggestion... WTF? there are enough conflicts with divided loyalties after a split, the last thing you want to do is to put the poor child to decide between both parents in front of them. That's absolutely bonkers.

That's sad Snurt. Poor ds, its a big burden for a 9 year old. Is there other family here he'll be leaving behind too?

You need to talk to his mum and find out what exactly is going on and what exactly he's been told. I know my 8 year old can be told one thing and take it completely differently, so he may have the wrong end of the stick. I also grew up with parents who were constantly muting different ideas of moving to weird and wonderful places but they were just muting rarely came to anything.

However like others have said please take legal advice and let your son know that you love him and support him and his decision.

gosh lots of posts since i last saw this!
I don't think you should 'give in' at all but this is a really hard thing to decide. your job as parent is to make a decision in the best interests of your child and to preserve your relationship. i reckon you could keep it going well if your ex supports this and you are able to visit and he can visit you too. whilst you relationship with him is important for you but it is vital that he feels loved and secure in his relationship with you (I hope i've expressed that right, i don't mean you are less important but he is the vulnerable one ifywim).

I regret in many ways that we dragged our dd across the country to keep close to my dh's two kids. it was the best thing for those two but i am not 100% sure it was best for dd. But we did it cos the ex unilaterally moved and we were advised (rightly I am sure) that we wouldn't win a court case because it was done for work and ex had 60% actual care though 50/50 care and control (and this split had been agreed to provide stability for kids). we were advised by family law specialist that the mum would win.

I just think court cases tear families apart and are very hard to recover from. And she will always be your son's mother just as you will always be his dad.. You have to get on civilly for the rest of your lives for your son's sake.

i hope it works out

Snurt- look on the relocate website. You'll find a true specialist there. Pm me your rough location. I know a couple of good ones.

Have been reading and not posting for a while. Am a friend of Snurt's in RL and I would quite like to throttle that woman (the Mother). She is insufferable (could list many more examples of her bad behaviour in the almost 7years I have known Snurt, but shall refrain as not my place- Snurt you are far too nice!) and its a miracle (and testament to Snurt's awesome parenting) that their son is an absolutely lovely and well adjusted lad.

I really really hope this resolves so that they don't go, but if they do go personally I think that Snurt's son would be much better off with Snurt.

But appreciate I am quite probably biased on this one.

aw that's pretty sweet

good luck snurt

I have been through this. My advice is to seek counsel. I am a mum, and you asked if you were a mum would the advices be different. My response is; If you as the father had the children (brothers and sisters) and the mother had visitation I would allow you to move. Some fathers make better care takers than the mothers. Personally I think children should stay with their brothers and sisters. Of course there is always the exception.

Psychologically, this move can leave scars to your son. If either one of the Parents think of only of who wins, who gets to keep the son, Who is the better parent and after all is over shows verbal resentments on how the child is being raised ie. as an American or English, you will both be very upset with yourselves later. And your child is the one who will suffer the most.

This is a very difficult decision.

My story in short; I was also not married to the father of my child, but until I had said that perhaps there was a possibility to move outside of America, he really had no time for the child. A verbally abusive man as well. My child was told from 3 years on he is to stand to pee like an American should. And that his sister is not his real sister, I think you get the just of it. It could have worked better. My child must travel 3 times a year, to the US and that is every easter, Christmas and summer. My husband had tried to find work in the US but was unable to. My situation is a bit different obviously.

If you know your ex well, and trust her, are good friends it can work. But then both parents need to humble themselves. Give the child the feeling that he is lucky to have so many people that love him. It is a lot of hard work, you have to listen to your heart and not what other people think is correct behaviour ie.( I would´t let my f+#509 son leave.) And I guess this is also for your ex. to read. You both will have to change your lives as you know it now. Christmas trees in summer :-)

I hope I have been of some help.