My son's mother wants to move abroad for a year and take him.

[Snurt]

Hi, just wondering if the collective wisdom of mumsnet could offer me some advice, hopefully it won't matter that technically speaking I'm more of a dad than a mum!

My son is 9, I was there when he was born and have been fully involved in his entire life, despite never having been in a relationship with his mother. Current arrangements are that he spends 5 nights out of every 14 with me. His mother has since married and has two other much younger children with her husband. Her husband's work want to send him to the US for a chunk of time, at the very minimum a year but it sounds like it could easily become a year and a half or two years. She wants to go, with all the children, offering skype and school holiday visits back. I am, as you'd imagine, not happy about this, both for the disruption of his schooling and my losing regular contact with him.

I know that I can legally prevent them from taking my son, as I have parental responsibility, unless they get a court order - what are the chances that they could get a court order in this sort of situation? They would cite his relationship with his half-brothers, and that his step-father would lose his job if he doesn't go (I don't know if this is true but it's how it's been presented to me).

Should I be looking to get a prohibited steps order, or is my having parental responsibility and making clear my lack of consent for him to go enough? We have so far managed to deal with things without involving lawyer/courts, so there are no residency orders in place.

Any advice on the legalities or feedback on whether my stance is reasonable or not welcomed.

Unaccompanied minors aren't unaccompanied! They are closely supervised, including any transits.

My DP's son and daughter by her first marriage went to another country "for a year" when they were about 12 and never came back until they were grown up. It happens.

A father can expect less sympathy on mumsnet than a mother.

Not IMO they're not, Mollie. That would be unacceptable to me. Oh, the tales my flight attendant auntie could tell about that!

'A father can expect less sympathy on mumsnet than a mother.'

That's about the sum of it.

I have put the "removal of jurisdiction battle" to the side as well, for my ex to have regular contact with his dad.

However, if my son had been living primarily with his dad, had siblings and a step mother... well, I would say that if he is happy in such family unit, I wouldn't like to remove the stability he has in that family.

Having said that, DS was put under such stress by the contact demands of his dad, that he doesn't want to have anything to do with him anymore. :(

sorry that should have read "for my son to have regular contact with his dad".

Fair enough Expat I can only comment on the ones I saw travelling on the flights I've taken. It wouldn't be my choice but I was impressed at how well they were looked after.

MollieO, yes I know that, legally, you can. But that doesn't make it the right thing to do.

I have a 9yo and a 12yo. There's no way on earth I'd consider sending either of them on an aircraft, on their own, on a flight of at least six hours (and, if it's west coast, you're looking at ten hours plus) to a foreign country that has as strict security procedures and immigration control as the US does. They're too young and there are too many things that could happen. I find flying stressful enough as an adult and I've flown transatlantic dozens of times.

Plus, again, that's assuming that there's no need to change flights. Considering the size of the US, there's not that many US cities that are a direct flight from the UK. For the vast majority of US destinations you'll need to fly into a major hub airport and then change to a local airline. Would you really want your 9yo child doing that?

Would you be 100% certain that the escort they had on the (say) 10hr BA flight from Heathrow to SeaTac would get them onto the right regional connecting flight at the right time to take them out to Boise, Idaho? What happens if the BA flight is delayed and they miss the connection?

Finally, a minor flying on all the airlines I know of will require that you book, and pay for, an escort service to accompany your child. You don't know who that will be and the costs are such that you might as well get an adult to fly with them.

But, hey, if you'd be happy with your 9yo doing all that then go right ahead. I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than let my 9yo do that. I don't even let her take a bus by herself.

I'm rubbish at advice on this sort of thing but I would say, take action now

I only say that because having been an expat I know how easy it is for time to stretch. Somebody else said up thread, how do you know it will only be a year, and this is a good point. I would be very, very doubtful that it would be only a year.

Also someone else said you don't want to be litigating in the US about this and I agree with them.

I would take some action or other but I don't know what and I really don't know anything about the legal situation.

I just think it could be a lot longer than a year. We went for two - we returned after ten.

Snurt, I've just read a little more of the thread and I see the sympathy seems to be largely with the boy's mum?

I think this is understandable but I do think you need to realise that you may be saying goodbye for a lot longer than a year and I think you need to establish your position. I would see a lawyer I think.

yes I'm with checkmate and twofalls

There are other benefits to him staying, apart from his relationship with you: stability, education, routine and so on.

If it is just a year, the mum should consider his welfare too and also think about the disruption and upset. It's not just your job to do that.

I mean, one year abroad can be extremely disruptive. That's not difficult to see. What she's proposing is disruptive. Out of school, a year in an entirely different system, long flights home, loss of friends, loss of new friends, return home and your old friends have moved on etc etc.

God knows I have been through it with my own and I don't deny the benefits of travel etc but really, the stability and security lies in him staying here for a year?

How the heck did this get to unaccompanied minors on planes already?

That's talk that suggests a decision is inevitable.

oh I see more people agree as well

good

excuse multiple posts, I feel worried on your behalf

Snurt: I'd fight it if I were you. A large proportion of fathers lose touch with their children after an international relocation. Have a look at this

www.familylawweek.co.uk/site.aspx?i=ed61960

It highlights how difficult it can be. This is proper research. Go for it.

Could you talk to the step-father? Ask him how he'd feel having his children taken to live in another continent. If he is a reasonable person, maybe you could appeal to his fatherly instinct?

I agree with you that the 'right' outcome here would be for them to not go to America. Would he be able to find an alternative job in the UK? I think you are well within your rights to ask him to find a job closer to home.

Does anyone know if it is legal for a company to demand you move to America or lose your job? It seems unlikely to me, but I know nothing of employment law. I'm struggling to believe that they have to move to America and think it's more likey that just 'want' to. If this is the case, showing them that you will fight the move may be enough to get them to back down.

Collaborate that sounds like bs to me

"The contact

For children of many age groups, seeing a parent again after, say, 6 months can feel strange. The relationship is so dislocated that it is barely meaningful.

Even though quality time rather than quantity time are still recognised as needed, the impact of the interruption of contact routines is great. Contact in the new home state of the child can be thwarted readily. A father who has travelled for 24 hours to see his child only to find barriers to meaningful contact, will find it very hard to persevere. Good fun at an exotic location does not reflect the reality of life with that parent. "

Just sounds like that's more shit to dump on the PWC that before. Blame them for everything yes? It's so hard for the other parent, diddums...

All one sided "research" too, want to link something from the other side?

It says in Snurbs OP that the SF's company want to send him to the US - nowhere does it say he would lose his job. However, even if that is what it means they have other options - he can look for a new job (if his company want to send him to the US he's hardly going to end up unemployed is he?) OR he could go the US and commute to see his children and his wife and all 3 children could go out for holidays.

Snurt What is best for him is very much my main priority and I would never want him to come off worse due to decisions I or his mother make. I don't think it is selfish of me to consider my relationship with him as being important to his happiness just as much as his mother's relationship to him

It's not at all mate.

"Professor Patrick Parkinson at the Australian Family Lawyers' Conference in Fiji in early June 2009 summarised the first part of research carried out by the Faculty of Law, University of Sydney, in collaboration with a team at the University of Otago in New Zealand. Dr Marilyn Freeman carried out research for Reunite Research Unit and funded by the Ministry of Justice"

So all they can produce is bullshit? No one's got an agenda here. Don't be so bloody offensive cheeseandgherkins.

'You are his dad, but they are his family.'

So suck it up? It sounds to me like he is being marginalised.

Imagine 'You are his mum, but they are his family.'
So let him go. There's always skype.

Your son's step-mum's career comes first.

There would be uproar.

Surely it will be on your side that they are going only for a year - that is so very disruptive?

The SF needs to consider how he would feel if someone said to him we're taking your children 5000 miles away but you can Skype and see them on holidays.

I would fight tooth and nail for my children to stay in the same city as me let alone moving to another country.

I can't believe how many people on here are suggesting that the OP is being selfish.

I was moved to another country at the same age as the OP's child, with non of the additional barriers, and i hated it, does you son if all things were equal actually want to move. This is something my DH and I have discussed at length, we have both made sacrifices with our careers because we both hated being moved as children and don't ever want to do this to our children. Secondary issue here though.

This link to research and its conclusions very closely tallies with the experience of my dh.