Antisemitism

[bubbleandsqueak1976]

I read the posts on here with interest and often the subject of anti semitism comes up. I was brought up in a town in the South East. My mum gave me a book about Anne Frank when I was around 8 and I can remember asking ' what is a Jew?' as I had never met one. When I was about 14 a girl from northern Israel came to my school and I was asked to befriend her and help her settle in. I can remember being fascinated about her life in a Kibbutz and she used to show me
Hebrew writing. I don't recall ever hearing anything anti semitic about her or her brother as the only two Jewish kids - to my knowledge in the school. I also remember in my twenties encountering a group of lads from North London - white something and them having an absolute hatred for Jewish people. I can remember feeling utterly shocked as I'd never heard anti Jewish speak prior to this. Reading some of the recent posts on here it has made me wonder wherever there are pockets in the Uk with Jewish communities that experience antisemitism where the rest of the UK it does not occur as people simply have never met a Jewish person just their life- to their knowledge.Where I live I have only met 4 Jewish people in the Uk in my life and I am 47. The most Jewish people I have met were in Israel when I visited in 2000.

You probably won't be surprised to hear that it's being shared on the CITME board as a "powerful" article.

Oh of course it is! 😂

Nice for them to have someone new to wheel out, there's only so many times you can invoke Pappé and Finkelstein.

That article reeks of privilege. I'd love to see Naomi Klein have a chat with my family so she could explain to them how their Judaism is internationalist by nature rather than by the design of their countries's governments that ethnically cleansed them out of their homes. The Wandering Jew is a trope for a reason.

I'm always quite conflicted by these kinds of people. On the one hand, it gladdens my heart that Jews anywhere have grown up safe and secure enough to feel accepted by their host countries to the extent of believing that all those "Gentiles only" signs in towns, clubs, public facilities and educational institutions were just a quirky little blip in North American/Canadian history and that no-one's going ever to tell them to go back to Poland. On the other hand, it saddens my heart to see such a denial of Jewish history, ethnicity and persecution because doing this might make them more acceptable but it isn't going to make them any safer.

I saw this on X earlier. No idea if it's in relation to Klein's article, but does in fact speak to it pretty well:

Anti-Zionism is a movement to recreate “the wandering Jew”.
It is a superiority complex which insists all Jews return to living precariously at the whim of non-Jewish society.

Spot on.

I'd never thought of it like that- and I have never described myself as a Zionist- but this is bang on the money and is something I need to really think about.

A woman in France was reportedly kidnapped and raped in the name of vengeance for Palestine this weekend.

if she wants to leave France, I’m fucking glad she has Israel to go to.

I responded on the board.

@EllaDisenchanted that is awful, I have no words really.

I'm done with contributing to that board but well done!

Some of the responses I've seen about this incident have been awful. Just outright, hateful racism.

But this is it isn't it. They can't have it both ways - on the one hand "anti-Zionists" are making the climate unbearable for Jews, so massive numbers of French Jews especially have left for Israel over the last decade. But on the other they want Israel dismantled! They're just proving exactly why Israel needs to exist, and the bottom line is, it's probably the sole reason a lot of the 'diaspora' would think of themselves as zionists.

I'm not posting this on the CITME board because the response is predictable, but this video is pretty scary. I really like Sadiq Khan but this whole 'there's no place for antisemitism in London' is ringing very, very hollow because there definitely fucking is. Not saying this incident is linked to the protests, but there's definitely an atmosphere of emboldened Jew-hatred around London in general right now that is a direct result of these weekly marches. I really worry that people who are visibly Jewish are going to feel too scared to move about the city soon if not already, including their own street.

https://twitter.com/HeidiBachram/status/1784575228258967900

"A Jewish man was nearly kidnapped by four men in London. They opened their boot and told him to get in but gave up when he called the police and other cars approached"

I’m not Jewish so feel free to tell me this is not my space and I will get lost and won’t lurk.
I came here because I think there genuinely is confusion over what Zionism means and if it is anti semitic to be anti Zionist.
If Zionism means “ I will protect my homeland “ then that’s fine - we all do that .
If Zionism means -“ I support settlers who steal land or threaten Palestinians “ then …. Obviously I’m not Ok with that.
I don’t want a history lesson. I just want to know what Zionism means to you.
It’s absolutely ok to ignore me - I’ll take the hint and disappear as this is your space - not mine.

And if you’re wondering why I’m bothered. ..
1 All my friends go to pro Palestine marches and I keep having to explain myself. It’s tiring.
2 I come from a Northern Ireland background and know what polarised politics creates for communities

Zionism is the belief that Jews have the right to a state in their ancestral homeland. As simple as that.

It requires a modicum of knowledge on Jewish history (where we come from, where we've been and so on), and giving Jews the same right afforded to any other peoples regarding building a state in their homeland.

There are some Jewish people who don't believe Jews need a state and are better off living in the diaspora - an imaginative and optimistic opinion given the Holocaust, Farhud, pogroms, expulsions, current antisemitism etc. Our holiest sites are there, we cannot erase our connection to the land.

The term "Zionism" has become utterly distorted and is used as to make antisemitism "acceptable" - "we don't hate Jews, we only hate Jews who want the same rights as anyone else".

Anyway, those are a few ideas. It's late and I'm knackered, but I hope I've given you some idea that Zionism is a wholly innocuous, even beautiful, term. You are probably a Zionist.

Thank you 🙏. I completely understand why a homeland is important to you . Have a good nights sleep.

Sorry, not sure if I came across too grumpy. We are all tired and grumpy!

Yes and ever so weary and heartbroken.

@Limesodaagain I've seen the discussion over there...honestly I think some people are being disingenuous/outright dishonest. The definition is simple, and as Movingbird states above.

I can't remember if it was you or someone else who gave the example of feminism and political lesbianism (if we are talking about the same conversation) but I think it's a good comparison.

The way the word "Zionist" has been turned into a political hand grenade is very telling imho.

@Limesodaagain to quote Hillel fuld (who says the same as moving bird) “Zionism is the movement to allow Jews to come back to their homeland, the land of Israel.”

The disingenuously named university students rising up thread should be titled Zionists Attack!! The Tokenising.

A lot of people say 'I don't hate Jews, I just hate Zionists' and I think most don't realise that, in that case, they hate most Jews I'm afraid.

I'm an 'against Israel's actions but ultimately for the existence of Israel' Jew myself - which would make some Jews think I'm an anti-Zionist traitor, and some anti-Israel types label me a Zionist, so go figure.

To me it's a moot point arguing whether Israel should exist or should it be where it is - it exists and it's there. The issue is how it conducts itself - I honestly don't know what we do about the thorny problem that there are Palestinians dispossesed of their family lands and homes generations ago who understandably don't ever want to give up the fight for that. I think Israeli settlers are scumbags who should give their land back to Palestinians.

At the same time I am disturbed by a line being pushed that Israelis are simply white, European settlers colonising brown people; it's not as simple as that and that line is clearly a way of soothing the guilty consciences of liberals who aren't sure what to think about Israel's existence by telling them 'Fuck 'em, they're just colonisers who should go back to Europe'. For a start, I have heard it said, and TBH I don't know the source, it might be wrong, that around 50% of Israelis are of middle eastern and North African background, descended from people who never lived in Europe and were always in the region - it sounds very plausible certainly. And Jews are clearly not interlopers there - Israelis are speaking a semitic language and, FWIW, if you were to put most Israelis and most Palestinians in the same clothes, you would't be able to tell which was which. My husband is European Jewish back as far as anyone knows, but stick him in a crowd of Palestinians and you wouldn't pick him out as 'European'.

The clashes at UCLA are awful. Appears a jewish girl was beaten unconscious by 5 people and ended up in the ER, which some reports are saying triggered the counter protestors to riot.

https://twitter.com/CollinRugg/status/1785457052028117153

The whole thing is awful. Should have been shut down days ago.

From what I have seen online, roughly 40-45% are mizrahi (in 2018). Ashkenazi Jews are far fewer (in Israel).

Same with my DH. He looks Middle Eastern, not white.

The other issue is that the Jews are A People in a way Christians, for example, are not - one of Christianity's revolutionary facets as it emerged that it really created the concept of a 'religion' - previously beliefs were associated with nations/peoples but Christianity was something anyone could join, regardless of background. Judaism is not and has never been a prostheletising religion and although people do occasionally convert, usually for marriage (one of my grandmothers did, hence me looking very European myself!) so Jews tend to be pretty strongly... well, Jewish by origin and therefore descendents directly of people from around where Israel is now. The Palestinians are the descendents of the Jews that didn't leave - that's what frustrates me so much about this and struck me so hard when I visited Israel, that the Palestinians and the Israelis are the same people!

I do believe the diaspora is important as well though and I don't like the line some people take that Israel is the only safe place for us, but then I am lucky to live in the UK which remains one of the safest countries for Jews in the world.

Anyone know where this is? https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6YP6Juo5XO/?igsh=MTRnNWdua2ZtYjU4Yg==

is it a university?