Antisemitism

[bubbleandsqueak1976]

I read the posts on here with interest and often the subject of anti semitism comes up. I was brought up in a town in the South East. My mum gave me a book about Anne Frank when I was around 8 and I can remember asking ' what is a Jew?' as I had never met one. When I was about 14 a girl from northern Israel came to my school and I was asked to befriend her and help her settle in. I can remember being fascinated about her life in a Kibbutz and she used to show me
Hebrew writing. I don't recall ever hearing anything anti semitic about her or her brother as the only two Jewish kids - to my knowledge in the school. I also remember in my twenties encountering a group of lads from North London - white something and them having an absolute hatred for Jewish people. I can remember feeling utterly shocked as I'd never heard anti Jewish speak prior to this. Reading some of the recent posts on here it has made me wonder wherever there are pockets in the Uk with Jewish communities that experience antisemitism where the rest of the UK it does not occur as people simply have never met a Jewish person just their life- to their knowledge.Where I live I have only met 4 Jewish people in the Uk in my life and I am 47. The most Jewish people I have met were in Israel when I visited in 2000.

We’ve also seen the way anti-Semitism has shape shifted. It’s no longer acceptable to deny the Holocaust but you can relativise it by calling the bombing of Gaza a genocide too. I was also reading about something called “Holocaust appropriation” where other groups who were killed were elevated above Jews. I think it was the Socialist Worker who put out a statement on Holocaust Remembrance Day that said they were remembering trade unionists, trans people, socialists etc who were all killed and listed every group except the Jews.

It's been growing fast the last few years. When Corbyn was head of labour, irrelevant as to whether or not he dislikes jews, that is certainly from my view point when the middle class chatters began to be more openly vocal and didn't feel the need to hide it. Things get said about jews that people wouldn't dream.of saying about other communities but somehow down to the fact that these jew haters associate jews as all being rich and running everything they feel they can. I think there is a deep envy buried, this belief that all jews are rich which is ridiculous but I hear it said A LOT. Never ceases tp amaze me how often I get winded by a jew hating comment that comes from someone I thought wS a good friend.

I think it was the Socialist Worker who put out a statement on Holocaust Remembrance Day that said they were remembering trade unionists, trans people, socialists etc who were all killed and listed every group except the Jews.

Why doesn't this surprise me. This kind of 'hidden but actually not hidden' antisemitism is rife among the self-identified SJW crowd. And one of the hardest things for me as a socialist-leaning Jew, is the left-wing 'never seen any antisemitism' Jews who going along with it and make it harder for us to fight.

There is sometimes a nasty line played that Jews don't want any other groups mentioned when it comes to the holocaust, which is a lie that always makes me angry.

Yes, this is spot on. See also "I don't hate Jews, just Zionists" (Zionists who also control the media, line their own pockets, etc)

It's a really difficult one to explain to people in many ways.

I completely oppose Israel's actions; horrific as 7 October was, I find the scale inexcusable, the creation of a famine is 100% a war crime with no justification, and the whole way it is conducting itself contrary to any possibility of actual return of the hostages.

But at the same time I also understand why many, let's face it, most, Jewish people want to stand by Israel. As a Jew opposed to Israel's actions in Gaza I don't want to set myself up as 'the right kind of Jew' and others as the 'wrong kind of Jew'. I want people to try to see that Jews who support Israel have many reasons for that, not all of which I agree with, but they are entitled to hold those views and be Zionists without being seen as evil and hateful.

Am I a Zionist? I guess by the standards of the Left, yes, though many Zionists would probably call me a self-hating Jew for wanting a ceasefire. But at the end of the day I think Israel should continue to exist a) as it's there, it's right to exist is a moot point and b) it would be an act of vandalism to take apart what is an amazing and dynamic country. I just wish there were a way for the Palestinian people to share in all it has to offer.

@Echobelly I don't think people will be calling you a self-hating Jew for wanting a ceasefire. Don't we all want a ceasefire? The question is what everyone thinks is a reasonable sacrifice for the sake of a ceasefire. That's where the difficulties lie.

Anyway, none of your latest post, or my reply, has anything to do with antisemitism 🙃

Purim, which was only a couple of days ago, is always a good reminder of just how many centuries (/millennia) antisemitism has been an ongoing problem. Even if the story isn't historical fact, I highly doubt the author invented the concept of antisemitism!

I have to completely disagree. I grew up surrounded by Christians and nominal Christians and experienced far less anti-Semitism than I have from Muslims over the years. I think it has got much worse in recent years coinciding with the massive rise in immigration.

Also, there was lots of anti-Semitism in Arab/Islamic countries in history but most liberal Jews only focus on Europe and white-wash the various massacres, pogroms and dhimmitude of Jews in Muslim countries historically. My relatives who fled the Middle East have some horrific stories to tell which equal the treatment of Jews in Eastern Europe. Anti-Semitism is pervasive everywhere.

Which demographic?

What amazes me about antisemitism is how you can take an otherwise intelligent person, who's well aware that for thousands of years people have come up with reasons that Jews are terrible / bad / awful humans and MUST BE STOPPED and that they don't sit there and reflect that they are swept up in exactly the thing they learned about in school.

It's like their brain goes "oh yes, well when the Nazis did it, it was terrible, but this time the Jews really ARE awful and really MUST be stopped", as if every other generation who did it was bad and evil, but this time, they're right! And they sort of persuade themselves they're doing something good. Like some sort of racist super heroes.

Even as they take completely illogical beliefs and apply the most obvious tropes to Jewish people, they are still completely in denial that they're doing it. I think potentially they can't conceive of a form of racial hatred which isn't based on thinking a race is inferior, but instead of the conspiracy theory style belief that a certain race is somehow superior and uniquely malevolent in their hidden power and must be entirely eradicated for there to be human justice.

It is very odd to watch, as I studied antisemitism - in particular the last 100 years - for my masters degree and the one element I was missing was that the people doing it enjoy it, and far from feeling a sense of shame or guilt, they actually think they are the good ones, fighting evil by persecuting Jews.

It's almost like a fascinating study of human behavior - give them someone to hate - give them someone to blame and tell them that these people are responsible for oppressing others (which has been the story of antisemitism since the dawn of time) and they will stand by and say nothing as swastikas are spray painted on their synagogues. They might even join in.

Hitler was the master of tapping into this, by portraying Jews as the oppressors of German people. He said they were responsible for babies going hungry and many other social problems and the German's absolutely lapped it up - as did much of the world. Even as we were shipped off to concentration camps, people switched off their injustice alarm and persuaded themselves we were evil.

Now, I am watching it unfold in front of me. The virtuous passion with which these people froth up their hate, and the angry denial they exude if they are questioned on it. The middle eastern forum here is spectacular. "Is Israel a failed state". I mean, what are these people smoking?

A friend of mine studied Arabic in Syria years ago. It was well before the war when Damascus was the place to be to study Arabic.

She got friendly with some Syrian people who were very cultured and educated. She accepted a dinner invitation one night and had a wonderful meal with her friend’s family, charming company with excellent conversation.

Suddenly the subject of the Jews came up. And the father, this otherwise lovely man, just went into a hate-filled tirade about how awful the Jews were and about how they bake children’s blood into their bread.

I will never forget that story.

@CaterhamReconstituted I am of middle eastern decent and a native Arabic speaker and this is completely normalised. In a Sacha Baron Cohen kind of way. They're conditioned to hate Jews. I seriously doubt most want to murder them though!

Really great post, thank you for this.

Ps that thread is wild, I hadn't seen it when I commented above.

I'm absolutely disgusted by some of the comments across several threads today. I don't comment anymore, it's gone to too far on Mumsnet and feels futile (and more than bit scary to be honest).

Lemony, I remember you posting around October and your posts are as insightful now as they were then, so thank you (apologies if I'm confusing you with another lemon-themed poster)!

@Hélène79 Yes, sorry, I don't come on much as I get sucked into these pointless arguments with antisemites but I had a few hormones to get out today so I let myself go!

Oh @LemonyTicket , how I have missed your posts 🥹

The middle east board is just bonkers. Some of the stuff I've read on there recently. I tend not to reply for the most part now because it's generally just an echo chamber and I can't cope with the pile on.

Here's some music to listen to while reading.

On the one hand I can't believe that board has been allowed to stand, given what it has become. On the other, I guess it's better to have all those threads in one place - at least you can avoid them, unlike if they were scattered all chat or wherever.

Incidentally, I thought there was a 3 strikes and you're out policy on MN when it comes to deletions. Or is that just on the feminist board? Or maybe I've misunderstood completely. There are loads of posters who have had plenty of unpleasant/ antisemitic / goady posts deleted who still seem to be there.

Me too.

@0palfrootee What concerns me more than the 3 strikers, is the handful of posters that have been on these boards for the last six months, who by their own admission have no real skin in the game yet are permanently waiting in the wings for a Jew to turn up then they swoop in for some baiting. They know how to play the game without using explicit antisemitic rhetoric. The Jew hatred is so blatant though it would be funny if it wasn't so distressing. And yet Mumsnet does nothing.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

#9 is my favourite!

Bedtime now, I have just spent a solid 8 hours rowing with antisemites and hubby has gone to bed without me shouting "I hope you're winning".

Hugs all, don't let them get you down. They're the ones who will be mortified 10 years from now about their behavior.

Yes, agree.

Night all.

https://x.com/StandWithUs/status/1774841151876702659

Calls to strike tel aviv in NYC demonstration. I saw somewhere (looks like the same demonstration ) video footage calling for intifada.

I came to Israel a fair amount during the second Intifada, including spending a year here 😳