Catholic church - time to call it a day?

[Chil1234]

I truly hope that the latest scandals and accusations have hit the catholic church hard or preferably killed it stone dead. If it were isolated incidents or if the problems had been handled considerately, it might be put down to the vagiaries of life or the human condition. If other religious organisations had the same breadth of complaints one might make a faith connection. But it isn't the case.

The catholic church's position of absolute authority, of 'doing God's work', and expecting unthinking obedience, has resulted in apalling corruption and terrible abuse..... from the Magdalen Laundries, the Holly Mount Orphanage, the organisations that shipped children off to terrible conditions in Australia to the cover-ups surrounding abusive priests today. People in my own family have been direct victims of 'pastoral care', having their lives ruined when they most needed help. It's not enough to say that the church does a lot of good work or that there are good people in the organisation... that does not compensate for the instutionalised megalomania and abuse of privilege.

When the Pope visits I, for one, will not be there to greet him. Shame on the lot of them

The latest case, that of Father Lawrence Murphy, now directly involves the Pope. Evidence was sent to him and he didn't do anything. The best defence offered by the Vatican seems to be that Church Law doesn't have automatic punishments, which isn't a denial that the Pope knew about it and doesn't explain why he didn't do something.

I think the stories are going to keep on coming for a while yet.

The problem is that We confuse the Vatican with our own modern, Anglicized notion of a church. The papacy view them selves as the supreme power and authority on earth and the pope as infallible, (to the extent that his predecessor announced Mary's hymen was intact AFTER Jesus' birth, and "thus it became so")

The problem is not simply one of a failure to admit failure or wrongdoing, but an institutionalized arrogance that prohibits introspection coupled with a very real need to appear "above such petty earthly troubles". From their perspective the problem is not the Priests caught enjoying the perks of the job, but the fact that people are now looking for answers and accountability. This does not fit with their world view. We are NOT to question them and all views other than theirs are, thus, invalid.

Bear in mind that the pope is regarded by Catholics as the "King of Kings", the supreme power on earth and quite simply in charge. His dominion is the whole of creation, that means you and your children are their property. We are wayward subjects within their kingdom. democracy is anathema, (They instructed Americans not to vote after independence as it was ungodly) and all forms of Government are subordinate to them. And at the top in a man who has campaigned for the reintroduction of the inquisition.

This issue is never going to be resolved. because they don't care what You or I think.

"The papacy view them selves as the supreme power and authority on earth and the pope as infallible"

Papal infallibility does not mean that the Pope cannot sin and cannot make mistakes. There are a very strict set of conditions that must be met for the Pope to be speaking infallibly. The Catholic Church doesn't leave this up to doubt and is meant to be really rather clear on when the Pope is actually speaking infallibly, and it doesn't happen very often.

Just about everything that the Pope says isn't covered by Papal Infallibility at all.

I don't know if Pope John Paul made any infallible statements yet alone if what he said about Mary's hymen was an infallible teaching.

I agree. Many people who call themselves Catholics are lovely people, but the institution itself does not add any good to the world. The official stance is one of homophobia, misogynism and ignorance dressed up as faith.

There is a petition at the national secular society you can sign for the government to disassociate itself from the catholic stance.

The press and television in Italy are using "interesting" terminology about the latest scandal....The abuse is referred to as happening in "the Church of Ireland" which, be that as it may, is still a Catholic church.

Unfortunately, the average Catholic Italian (like dp until I put him right) thinks that "the Church of Ireland" is a protestant organisation akin to the Church of England.

That's the latest spin from Vatican City. Very very clever.

The trouble is not so much the notion of papal infallibility as that, to the rank and file follower, the default setting is to believe the clergy are incapable of wrongdoing. It's the same attitude that left Harold Shipman undetected for so many years. If Shipman had been supported by a wealthy church willing to move him along rather than report him to the police he could still be out there topping old ladies.

Since when is religious intolerance acceptable?

@ BadgersPaws

I'm not sure if I understand your point. The Pope is only infallible when he choses to be? Should I post a link on the OED meaning of Infallibility?

I do not understand this.

Why is the Catholic Church above the law?

"The best defence offered by the Vatican seems to be that Church Law doesn't have automatic punishments, which isn't a denial that the Pope knew about it and doesn't explain why he didn't do something."

The Church may not have automatic punishments, but the law does for Paedophiles and other forms of abuse. I really do not get why there is not more high profile police investigations going on into the Irish church and beyond.

I would be very pleased if someone could correct me on the lack of external investigation here....

And the tired old arguments re Ireland and the church really do not hold water in this day and age.

I believe current Catholic dogma is exactly that Tinnitus, I remember hearing on a documentary that recent Popes have only made statements considered to be statements of infallibility a couple of times during the last few Popedoms.

(I think the Immaculate Conception "ruling" was one of the more recent)

Rotten to the core.

OhyouBadBadKitten please don't confuse religious intolerance for a sickened feeling associated with the abuse of children and the subsequent cover up and failure to protect future children.

You can criticise the church but believe in God. Failure to criticise is what allow this to perpetuate for years.

While it is hard on nice decent ordinary people who are 'culturally' catholic and haven't done anything wrong themselves, I do think that the instution is appalling, corrupt, horrible and socially harmful and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. At the core of it is a basic sexual dysfunction, the obsession with misogyny and controlling sexual behaviour means that the upper levels of the institution have always appealed to sexually dysfunctional woman-hating bullies who reinforce each other's behaviour, therefore attracting more fucked up misogynists, closet gays who hate women and other gay men and paedophiles who get off more than anything on having power over the helpless.
So I would have more admiration for people who said 'I do not want to be a part of this institution any more because by remaining a part of it I WOULD BE condoning its horrible toxic ethos and the damage that has been done to so many lives.' than I would for those who are trying to cling on to the 'good bits' and ignore the awful ones. It;s a hard and brave thing to do, to reject something that has always been a part of your life, but in this case it really is the right thing to do.

"I'm not sure if I understand your point. The Pope is only infallible when he choses to be? Should I post a link on the OED meaning of Infallibility?"

Basically yes, the Pope isn't automatically infallible and not everything he says is considered infallible. He only speaks infallibly occasionally, I don't think there's been an infallible Papal announcement since the 1950s.

The Pope is not infallible, but there is a Catholic Doctrine called "Papal Infallibility" which applies in a few very strict situations.

So Catholics do not believe that everything the Pope says is infallible.

@ Bucharest.

Nope. It was Pius IX in the fourth century in a move to promote Infallibility.

I'm sure they want to have their cake and only eat it now and then. But in my book your either Infallible or you not. to claim it on the occasions that suit you is a nonsense.

There is a petition at the national secular society you can sign for the government to disassociate itself from the catholic stance.

Didn't Henry the 8th do that in setting up the Church of England ?

"But in my book your either Infallible or you not. to claim it on the occasions that suit you is a nonsense."

Well I'm not saying that I agree with or believe in it, I'm just trying to explain away the common misconception that Papal Infallibility means that anything the Pope says is infallible.

It's also worth noting that infallibility isn't declared retrospectively, the Pope doesn't say "oh, what I said last year, that was infallible."

Rather the Pope would, in effect, say is "What I'm about to say is an infallible statement about Catholic doctrine."

Cynically I can see why it's not done very often, when it is done it exposes them to the possibility of being obviously wrong.

I think that last statement that was subject to Papal infallibility was one in the 50s about Mary being bodily taken to heaven from earth.

"Didn't Henry the 8th do that in setting up the Church of England ?"

[laughs and then feels bad about laughing on a serious thread]

Tinitus- I think the point on papal infallibility is that although it is a strange concept, Catholics do not believe the Pope to be infallible on 99.99% of things he says so it's not as though they all go along with everything blindly.

Don't feel bad ArcticFox..I'm also lolololo at MMM's post..

'In the past 40 years, less than half of 1 per cent of Catholic priests in England and Wales (0.4 per cent) have faced allegations of child abuse. Fewer have been found guilty. Do not misunderstand me. One is too many. One broken child is a tragedy and a disgrace.'

Archbishops Nicholls.

Fair enough. We all agree that they are taking the piss with the infallible thing. but that was not the thrust of my main point.

The church will not act in anything like an appropriate manner on the recent scandal because they take offence at our audacity for seeking redress and accountability from them. We are questioning our betters and they simply won't engage with that.

There have been doctors who have murdered patients, does that mean we stop visiting doctors?

There have been childcarers who have abused children, does that mean we stop using childcare, school etc.

There are some wicked people in the Catholic Church who have committed awful crimes, why does that mean that the whole catholic church is bad?

Good point about nurseries...I haven't seen a single person on MN calling for all nurseries to be shut down...even though we know child abuse goes on there...

memoo, the difference is that said doctors and childcarers were sacked, prosecuted and sent to jail.

Not moved to a different nursery/surgery and told not to do it again.