Catholic church - time to call it a day?

[Chil1234]

I truly hope that the latest scandals and accusations have hit the catholic church hard or preferably killed it stone dead. If it were isolated incidents or if the problems had been handled considerately, it might be put down to the vagiaries of life or the human condition. If other religious organisations had the same breadth of complaints one might make a faith connection. But it isn't the case.

The catholic church's position of absolute authority, of 'doing God's work', and expecting unthinking obedience, has resulted in apalling corruption and terrible abuse..... from the Magdalen Laundries, the Holly Mount Orphanage, the organisations that shipped children off to terrible conditions in Australia to the cover-ups surrounding abusive priests today. People in my own family have been direct victims of 'pastoral care', having their lives ruined when they most needed help. It's not enough to say that the church does a lot of good work or that there are good people in the organisation... that does not compensate for the instutionalised megalomania and abuse of privilege.

When the Pope visits I, for one, will not be there to greet him. Shame on the lot of them

"'In the past 40 years, less than half of 1 per cent of Catholic priests in England and Wales (0.4 per cent) have faced allegations of child abuse. Fewer have been found guilty. Do not misunderstand me. One is too many. One broken child is a tragedy and a disgrace.'"

Well that's a great example of someone shifting the subject of an argument rather than actually trying to win it.

The point isn't that Priests abused children.

The point is that the Catholic Church knew about it, persuaded the families to remain silent, didn't take it to the law, didn't punish the Priests, moved the offenders somewhere else exposing new children to their activities and basically kept it all very quiet.

Those allegations have now gone right to the very top with the Pope himself accused of knowing about at least one case but doing nothing.

"There have been doctors who have murdered patients, does that mean we stop visiting doctors?"

Imagine finding out that the General Medical Council knew that a Doctor was killing his patients, persuaded the witnesses to not tell the Police, didn't punish the doctor and instead just her to a new hospital where she killed again.

@ memoo

If the health secretary new of Harrold Shipman and simply moved him on to another area, or got new jobs for abusive carers then you would have a point. Because that is what Herr Reitzinger did. and that is why the Irish Govt. should be investigating his actions as a potential accessory after the fact.

Bear in mind I am no fan of Ratzinger on any front and got told off on MN when I dissed him at his inaugration... But actually I sympathise with the Catholic Church in all this

I think that more blame should fall on the police authorities, who, time and time again, refused to apply the law to the church.

E.g. When I was at school, the school priest was charged with raping a child. The Police did not look into it - he confessed, and the police said that the church could deal with it as they saw fit. And that was IT. So the church moved him to another parish.

30 years ago (even less) we were really bad at dealing with child abuse as a society. I don't think it is fair to lay the entire blame at the church's feet, TBH.

But the whole of the catholic church is not behind it, the people who have allowed abusers to be moved to a different parish etc are also guilty of a crime imo, they are part of the problem

But that still doesn't mean that the whole organistion is bad!

The latest case of a nursery worker accused of child abuse involves a woman who had been getting away with her "abuse" for years...staff were too scared to report her..

...How common is this I wonder..?

I wouldn't leave my cat at a nursery.

"The point is that the Catholic Church knew about it"

No, individuals within the Catholic Church knew about it.

@ Memoo

But this goes right to the top, and the organisation has closed ranks. so YES the institution is rotten.

I have no problem with superstitious nonsense like Catholicism per se. But the Vatican stands accused of protecting child abusers, If you can excuse that I'd be interested to hear your argument.

No, not all Italian media have got it confused. It depends on which paper you read.
Plus the Vatican has been involved in so many other scandals.

I am never going to excuse child abuse or people who cover it up to protect abusers. I think each and every one of them deserve to be brought to justice.

I know the pope himself is accused (by the media) of covering up abuse it still doesn't mean that each and every person in the Catholic church is resposible.

My Boss was a total bitch, doesn't mean I'm bad.

For every bad person within the Catholic Church there are many more who have given up their wholes lives to doing good work.

"superstitious nonsense like Catholicism "

I think this comment alone shows that your judgement is somewhat clouded

I don't know how anyone could defend the Catholic Church on this one. Words fail me.

If this was a different sort of institution, covering up abuse, hiding and excusing the perpetrators, bullying children into silence, fucking up their lives, people would be resigning, in court, banged up.

@ Memoo

So do you think a devout catholic would have a less clouded and more valid viewpoint?

And these are more than just media allegations, documents and letters have arisen that point to a policy of silence by Herr Reitzinger himself, from a position of power and influence within the Church.

I don't doubt there are many good people who are of a Catholic bent. But the institution of the Vatican is disgracing them.

Deferring to Franca on this, but on the news programmes I've had half an ear to, it's always referred to the "Chiesa d'Irlanda"....

Wouldn't surprise me if they were trying to shufty the blame onto the Anglicans.....

(Franca, dp, as you know, is v devout and hugely supportive of Our Saint Silvio so you can imagine the type of paper that gets brought into our house, am thinking of locking him in on Sunday so he can't go and vote. )

The nursery analogy is ridiculous too DP. This is Europe-wide, scandal after scandal. This isn't a couple of (dreadful) incidents. The authorities didn't just move the nursery workers to another nursery and pray no-one found out. It is institutionalised abuse of children.

www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/comment/ian-bell/a-cover-up-beyond-forgiveness-1.1014819

this says it all

"This is Europe-wide, scandal after scandal."

It's world wide, the allegations against the Pope concern events in America.

"But the institution of the Vatican is disgracing them" Absolutly I agree! still don't think we should blame each and every person within the catholic church.

And for the record I am not Catholic

Have to go and feed DD but will be back, very interesting discussion

For those touting the 'one bad apple' excuse for the catholic organisation I think they are guilty of the same head in the sand philosophy that has meant children have gone unbelieved and offenders unprosecuted.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

And when the 'good men' subscribing to the faith are turning a blind eye and the 'good men' at the top of the faith, far from doing nothing, are helping the 'good men' lower down continue with their criminal behaviour then you've got evil taking the podium every time.

@ Memoo

I quite agree, I don't think I have said all catholics are to blame. But for an abuser or a facilitator to stand behind millions of decent catholics and say "Damn Me and you Damn us all" is yet more abuse of the sympathy faith gets from its adherents.

I quite agree tinnitus

Bucharest I hve to tell you (and I have never sad this to a mnetter) your remarks on the Church of Ireland show a total ignorance.
The Church of Ireland is the protestant church in IRELAND ffs it is nothing to do with Rome and it's allegiance is to Canterbury instead. It is the vestige of Ireland's colonial past when protestanism was the official church in Ireland. Catholic emancipation did not come acout until the early 19th CENTURY. As a catholic if I fel the need to go to church when I visit Irelan I prefer to attend a Cof Ireland service and I will start coming back to the occasional stance when reform occurs. We need married priests an end to the enforced celibacy (this should be down to individual choice) and the Pope needs to acknowledge an accept contraception if not actively promote it. I take the best elements of catholicism and keep them close to me. But my personal faith is based on ideas lifted from many religions, i guess that makes me an agnostic of sorts. Enforced secularism is also not the way forward and I find some secularists to be scarily fervent in their zeal. It is not religion that causes war and strife per se it is fundamentalism which is the problem and yeah that does apply to the Secular lobby too

And if you read my post properly Bernadette, before jerking yourself onto your equally, if not more so ignorant knees, you will find that I was quoting what the fucking Italian press are saying. I am not a Catholic I just happen to live with one.

typos again sorry

Bucharest , I must confess that I deliberately don't watch the news on the major Italian channels as a form of protest against our Silvio, I'm sure they say the most inducing things, I didn't want to contradict!
I read La Repubblica and they certainly don't try to sugar coat the recent events.
I also have a mild obsession regarding the bank of the Vatican and its (past???) relations with the Mafia.

I think you should start to buy Il Manifesto and leave it in the house

Seems like a big part of the problem in Ireland was that the church had at least as much authority as the state, so that police and other civil authorities who should have pursued abusive priests deferred to the church. Not very democratic, and not a way to protect the voiceless.

It's one reason I am suspicious of this government's promotion of "community leaders" in ethnic minorities.