Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

News

Catholic church - time to call it a day?

492 replies

Chil1234 · 26/03/2010 09:48

I truly hope that the latest scandals and accusations have hit the catholic church hard or preferably killed it stone dead. If it were isolated incidents or if the problems had been handled considerately, it might be put down to the vagiaries of life or the human condition. If other religious organisations had the same breadth of complaints one might make a faith connection. But it isn't the case.

The catholic church's position of absolute authority, of 'doing God's work', and expecting unthinking obedience, has resulted in apalling corruption and terrible abuse..... from the Magdalen Laundries, the Holly Mount Orphanage, the organisations that shipped children off to terrible conditions in Australia to the cover-ups surrounding abusive priests today. People in my own family have been direct victims of 'pastoral care', having their lives ruined when they most needed help. It's not enough to say that the church does a lot of good work or that there are good people in the organisation... that does not compensate for the instutionalised megalomania and abuse of privilege.

When the Pope visits I, for one, will not be there to greet him. Shame on the lot of them

OP posts:
bernadetteoflourdes · 26/03/2010 16:28

posieparker I cant do links. I am trying to get a source for the story. It was institutionalised abuse of the very young boy monks in Nepal. It might have been Unreported World (who IMHO have done a lot of good unbiased reporting on forgotten stories around the world!) or it may have been Observe supplement. It was a pretty powerful piece of reporting anyway, even the boys' parents turn a blind eye to the buse because of the honour bestowed on the family having a member in a monastery.off scratching head trying to recall article

bernadetteoflourdes · 26/03/2010 16:31

Ok sorry Badgers I stand corrected, and on quiet reflection I actually think the op's post is more inflammatory

bernadetteoflourdes · 26/03/2010 16:34

OMG i think I did a link by mistake, if only I can hone my skills correctly!

mathanxiety · 26/03/2010 16:56

Rockbird, I'm in the same boat as you.

Bernadetteoflourdes, your characterisation of the priest you have the misfortune to be dealing with is sadly very true to life. I can't for the life of me understand how people who accept or wish for the kind of adulation that a lot of priests receive(d) were /are accepted into seminaries for training. I would like to see what kind of psychological types/ personality profiles were considered acceptable in times past (maybe even now) as candidates for priesthood. Well done for standing up to your local oaf though!

KathyJelly: what you're saying is that gay men are paedophiles. Please think about this carefully.

Tinnitus, wrt infallibility; it only applies on matters of doctrine, i.e. the core teachings of the church. The pope can't declare infallibly that it's a perfectly beautiful day if it's 2 degrees and raining cats and dogs outside. Catholics do not believe the pope has dominion over all creation, etc., or that he is the king of kings. Also, "Herr" is not an appropriate title to use wrt a priest. (I know you can probably think of a few more appropriate ones )

This Times article is a good account of Paul Marcinkus' life and career. The only quibble I have is with the detail about Cicero, Illinois, the place where he grew up. Cicero is a suburb of Chicago, firmly in the metropolitan area, but completely separate administratively. Cicero township was Al Capone's bailiwick during the Depression and Prohibition era. It was then, and remains now, notorious as a Mob-controlled town. Marcinkus was never an 'Archbishop of Chicago' -- he was a titular Archbishop in the Vatican, and when the Banco Ambrosiano scandal took him down, he returned to the archdiocese of Chicago as a Pastor (parish priest) with no larger role. He was a shady character, and he grew up in a very corrupt town. There's a mindset that accompanies growing up in the circumstances of his youth that is very noticeable, especially in politics, in the whole Chicago area. Not necessarily the RC Church in Chicago, where priests tend to be far better educated and have a different attitude to laity than a lot of Irish priests.

I think the main problem of the Catholic Church wrt the rape of children is the attitude that it is primarily a matter of conscience and sin, as opposed to being a crime. Hence some of the inability to see the need to turn criminals in the ranks over to the relevant civil authorities. It's an attitude that needs a 100% change, because it fundamentally says that the Church in its personnel and as an institution is above or beyond the civil law of any given country. It has got away with this attitude partly because this attitude has been accepted by citizens of certain countries (thinking of Ireland here) and partly because child rape was historically not taken very seriously by law enforcement authorities (US, and other countries not majority Catholic) -- a perfect storm for paedophiles. The other factor in protecting paedophiles from the civil law of the countries where abuse took /takes place is institutional loyalty by very misguided and weak people who suffered from a total misapprehension of what constitutes real morality.

SolidGoldBrass · 26/03/2010 17:02

I think at the bottom it's very simple. WHo can really bring themselves to support or be a member of an organisation that SYSTEMATICALLY condemns and persecuties consensual adult sexual behaviour (gay sex, group sex, unmarried sex the use of contraception) and CONDONES sexual assault?

mathanxiety · 26/03/2010 17:03

Maybe because there's more to what the RC Church does than just that?

Oblomov · 26/03/2010 17:10

OP is offensive.

DarrellRivers · 26/03/2010 17:10

Can you really only leave if you are excommunicated?
Perhaps we need a ceremony like a reverse confirmation?

Tinnitus · 26/03/2010 17:17

@ mathanxiety

I is not appropriate for an organisation to ask children to address dress wearing celibates as "father", Think about that.

I cant think of a reason to adhere to the idiosyncrasies of any cult no mater how big or old it may be. I used Herr because he is German, If you like I could call him Mr. as He and I are not on first name terms.

If I and a few others decide that I can prefix my name with a presumptuous title already in common usage within families, It does not oblige you or anyone else to use it.

It is inappropriate to ask me to elevate the man.

mathanxiety · 26/03/2010 17:17

You can simply stop doing anything to do with the church, I suppose you could write a letter of repudiation, or send a certificate showing you had converted to another religion if that was the case. Parishes keep records of sacraments and maybe a letter or certificate from another church would be filed too?

bernadetteoflourdes · 26/03/2010 17:26

@mathanxiety thanks for the Marcinkus link, I had forgotten so many things about him over the years. @SolidGoldBrass presumabley you apply the same argument to Isalm and all Muslims then do you? Or are Catholics just the target du jour?

bernadetteoflourdes · 26/03/2010 17:27

typos Islam, presumably

smallorange · 26/03/2010 17:29

What is offensive about the OP?

mathanxiety · 26/03/2010 18:10

There are men all over the world who wear clothing similar to dresses and are called 'father'. OK they are not the Pope, but someone's uniform shouldn't come into the argument here -- it's not a great point to try to make.

Herr and Mr are equally unsuitable, just as they would be for a doctor or a member of the royal family. The profession of priest comes with the title 'Father'. It's not meant to imply biological fatherhood. The Church has debased the honorific -- it's particularly nasty to think of child rape victims calling their rapists 'father', it carries an extra dimension of vileness, imo.

The Pope is basically a priest, though. He's also a Bishop (of Rome). You may call the titles the idiosyncrasies of a cult, and you're entitled to your opinion on that score (cult) too, but priest, bishops, etc. do have formal titles. I would swallow my republican beliefs and address the Queen as Ma'am or Your Majesty as appropriate if I were ever to meet her.

Tinnitus · 26/03/2010 18:28

sorry, I didn't make this argument. But formal professional titles are for Drs. not cultists.

StrictlyKatty · 26/03/2010 18:36

Oh what a nice suprise a Cathlic bashing thread.

Well since we're banning Catholicism I'd like to ban Islam as it's just a hotbed for extreemism and opresses women.... Oh not wait, no one can say that it's only Catholic bashing allowed on MN.

I'm sick of these threads, all they focus on is the terrible cases of abuse. Not every Catholic has been abused and not every Priest is an abuser

Is that too difficult for people to understand? Oh and here is a shocker... the Pope wasn't actual a Nazi! He was a CHILD during WW2. That probably won't stop someone coming on and saying that he practically led the SS though.

posieparker · 26/03/2010 18:42

Strictly do you support a man that fails to report a serial child rapist to the Police? Nothing to do with him being a Catholic, but a man that would rather not shame his church than report such evil.

StrictlyKatty · 26/03/2010 18:44

I don't believe the Pope would ever have refused to report it. If he said he didn't know I believe him. The Pope does not lie. The Pope has admitted any mistakes he has made, look at his apology to Ireland.

BariatricObama · 26/03/2010 18:46

the pope is a nob

Tinnitus · 26/03/2010 18:46

@ striclyKatty

Oh well thats all right then. If only a few children were abused, and only a few people, including the Pope, covered it up, then we should all grow up and let them get on with it.

How dare we get upset about it?

posieparker · 26/03/2010 18:47

Why are news reports saying that he knew but because the child rapist, with over 200 victims, was old and dying he did not report it?

StrictlyKatty · 26/03/2010 18:49

I never said it should be forgotten. It is the single worst thing in the Church's recent history. However, some people on here really like to exaggerate the scale.

It did not happen to every alter boy, not every Priest is guilty. There is widespread abuse in other religions too.

The Church had apologised as is working to change. Priests are never alone with children now. I do not believe that the whole Church is rotten becuase of a few people.

smallorange · 26/03/2010 18:50

Strictlykitty

it really irritates me when someone comes on to a thread which is contentious but actually quite interesting and informative and make some sweeping generalisation which is actually quite offensive yo everyone on here.

I am not Catholic bashing. Neither are most people on here.

StrictlyKatty · 26/03/2010 18:53

The Pope has said that he was not aware of the scale, and that he did not have time to deal with all the evidence as the Priest in question died 4 months afterwards.

BariatricObama · 26/03/2010 18:55

yada yada yada