Catholic church - time to call it a day?

[Chil1234]

I truly hope that the latest scandals and accusations have hit the catholic church hard or preferably killed it stone dead. If it were isolated incidents or if the problems had been handled considerately, it might be put down to the vagiaries of life or the human condition. If other religious organisations had the same breadth of complaints one might make a faith connection. But it isn't the case.

The catholic church's position of absolute authority, of 'doing God's work', and expecting unthinking obedience, has resulted in apalling corruption and terrible abuse..... from the Magdalen Laundries, the Holly Mount Orphanage, the organisations that shipped children off to terrible conditions in Australia to the cover-ups surrounding abusive priests today. People in my own family have been direct victims of 'pastoral care', having their lives ruined when they most needed help. It's not enough to say that the church does a lot of good work or that there are good people in the organisation... that does not compensate for the instutionalised megalomania and abuse of privilege.

When the Pope visits I, for one, will not be there to greet him. Shame on the lot of them

@ bernadetteoflourdes

Quite true, just ask W.

My point is that the institution of the Vatican is a crumbling facade and most catholics I've met are very much like yourself. The sour cream at the top, however, is unprepared for the 20th never mind the 21st century and have reverted to the schoolboy tactics of hiding the truth and dumb insolence.

I make no comment on peoples right to faith, but these guys are guilty of heinous crimes by perverting the truth and aiding those they knew to have abused children. and they are hiding behind their robes as though they should divert us.

Now this is out people should question weather they should continue to support the Vatican either financially or by affiliation.

I don't really want to get drawn into this; there have been a few of these threads recently and I just seem to get angry so probably best avoided.

But I just want to say, Dittany you're spot on with your last post. I'm from an Irish Catholic family, all church going, very involved. The second paragraph of your last post above completely sums it up. But people asking how I can defend the CC, how I can be a part of it, it's like asking how I can remain white, or why am I happy to call myself British or Irish. It's so completely a part of me that it's not possible to not be Catholic. That doesn't mean that I am not shocked, disgusted, betrayed, all of the things you mention. Particularly as throughout my life and that of my family, we have never had the slightest incident with anyone involved in the church. I have been surrounded by fabulous, dedicated, good people. The church I attend now is fantastic, such a centre of the community. DH is not Catholic and he loves being part of it, it's all new to him and he has jumped right in there. So I have seen no 'evidence' of this and it's extremely hard when there is something that you love and you find out that actually, it's part of the most hideous activities imaginable and that people expect you to be responsible for it.

I don't know what will happen, I hope to God that these people get what's coming to them. It's very very hard to be Catholic at the moment and to feel such hatred directed at 'me'. I can understand why, of course, don't get me wrong. But it doesn't make it any easier.

@ RockBird

Anyone who directs hatred at catholics is missing the point.

The abused children were all from catholic families.

Nobody from out side the church was a victim in this.

We can all voice disgust, but anger is the right of those affected.

Sorry. I feel no culpability or guilt. I was a teenager when most of the cases occurred: a minor myself. I didn't know it was happening. Now I do know, I have supported my diocese in carrying through measures that will prevent the abuse and cover-up ever happening again. And this has included financial support(which I can ill afford) for training lay people and clergy in child protection.

I feel responsible for making sure it doesn't happen again but no guilt.

And point of information, Tinnitus, we don't support the Vatican financially. Some of us give money to charities such as Cafod. Others support initiatives like the ones I've mentioned above: child protection training. Do you think some kind of collecting tin marked 'For the Vatican' goes round at Mass?

Dittany my protest involves not attending Mass or receiving Sacraments and I have held back on ds's Holy Communion. I have also stopped donating to CAFOD (that one hurts, as they have done a lot of good works in regions throughout the world.) I have written protest letters to The Catholic Times, 7 in all demanding major reform within the Church and the first letter was sent way before the sex abuse scandals arose.
I have engaged our Bishop in discussion on the subject of the need for married Priests
and have been extremly combative with our local Priest who to me is the very embodiment of all the ills within the church. He is an ignorant unlearned oaf, (the only type they can recruit to the Priesthood today) He challenged me ( I had stopped attending Mass for a long while) as to why I was in his church lighting a candle for my sick mother. I told him that my non attendance was part of my way of protesting and when there is a new Vatican Council introducing sweeping reform I would be back again. I also told him that I had not been excommunicated by Rome and therefore had as much right as he to be in the Church that day I told him that he was very belligent (he tried to stand between me and the wax tapers and collection box so I could not light a candle) I stood my ground and told him that in the spirit of our faith I would forgive him his hostility and told him I would light a candle for him too. He was gobsmacked as I think he has always been at the receiving end of "fawning adulation" in the Parish. So aside from storming Rome on a golden chariot I don't know how else I can protest. But it does state RC in my Baptism, Confirmation and Marriage Certificates, I have received all the major Sacraments to date (apart from Last Rites) so a Catholic I shall always be (unless I am excommunicated!)

Stopping donations to CAFOD hurts only the poor, sick and otherwise marginalised? HOw does that help? CAFOD is staffed by lay people, not priests.

Aw "Sainted Mammy of God" typos again guys sorry! Belligerant belligerant belligerant.

My concern is that even if the church deals with the current crop of cases, no-one's dealt with the underlying problem.

To be a catholic priest, you have to give up the right to marry or have a full relationship with a woman. Very few heterosexual men are going to do that.

In some intolerant societies, a man not marrying would leave him open to accusations of homosexuality. The one way to avoid those accusations is to become a priest.

The function of the catholic church gives priests access to children, often in a position of trust and authority.

These make the catholic church an attractive career for those with a preference for small boys.

Until the church deals with the root causes somehow, and I do realise that involves fundemental doctrine, I just can't see how things are going to improve.

three more words to add oil to the fire:

Mount Cashel Orphanage

@ abride

in 2008 $53 million were voluntarily donated to the Vatican coffers. Peter?s Pence office even accepts credit cards, although you have to send details by fax so I don't recommend it.

abride I might look into that one again. My uncle is a (ex) Carmelite Priest who told us that at one stage CAFOD funds went through the Banco Ambrosiani (Bank HQ Vatican City) and a layer was skimmed off. My uncle was in the Irish School in Rome at the time, and he was told this by the the Bishop of Padua. My uncle is a man of incredible integrity and is now a University lecturer, he resigned Holy Orders because he fell in love with a woman and wanted to marry her. If they had allowed married priests the Church would be a better place. He is a great loss to them.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7065824.ece anyone else notice the name of the journo??

That aside, the Pope should be arrested and stripped of his duties. This would show the the Catholic church has no mercy for people associated with any paedophile activity. I heard a man on the radio today saying that child abuse is a term that gets used so often we forget what it means, it is the rape of children. This church needs to get into the 21st century or be prepared to lose followers....Islam and Catholicism need to sort out their gender equality.

@ ditanny

I meant anger over this particular issue, I share your anger over every other affront to humanity they have committed.

@ Dittany I laugh about it now cos it was a very Father Ted moment. He really was trying to block me but I was so angry and ready for confrontation as I was worried about my mum, and that token act of lighting a candle for her was hugely important for me that particular day. BadgersPaws some of what you say is true but your tone is verging on the inflammatory. Abuse of children happens in other sects faiths etc. There is frequent and accepted abuse of child Monks in Buddhist Monasteries. It goes on in the CofE, Pentecostal Churches Madrassars etc etc etc. I am beyon angry with my Church but no way do I feel personal guilt. I will remain a Catholic but I will register my protest with them until they reform but I do not want the insituition destroyed!

Accepted abuse of child monks....really? (asking as curious)

Good woman Bernadette

Just for the record, our priests at the moment have very very little interaction with children. If they do, it's in a classroom with a teacher, or in a church with parents etc. Lay people run the liturgy groups and our baptism, confirmation etc classes are run by nuns who are also the school liaison. You would now never get priests left on their own with children. Even 'backstage' before mass when the altar servers and priests are getting ready, there is always at least one other adult, a lay person there, usually two. I suspect that's the story in most places now, at least in the UK, I can't speak for anywhere else. It doesn't address the past of course, but it is taking very careful steps for the future.

Dittany you are right about the misogny is a root evil and as you say prevalent in Islam too. But I also see a lot of evil in the hard lined Christian fundamentalists in the US and there is a lot of corruption there too. Bash the corruption and cover up in Rome. Bah the hardline fundamentalists like Opus Dei(Ruth Kelly are you there?) and yes, bash all Religious fundamentalism but don't clobber ordinary Catholics like me and Abride!

"BadgersPaws some of what you say is true but your tone is verging on the inflammatory."

What was inflammatory? None of it was meant to be.

Just to make clear I am not saying that all Catholics should be blamed.

However what I am saying is that equally they cannot just wash their hands of it either.

I supported Labour before the Iraq war, that doesn't make me guilty for what happened, but my support did play a small part in empowering and enabling it. Therefore I can't just wash my hands and have to consider if I should have known better and what I can do differently in future.

I can't just say "I didn't know, I didn't make those decisions, therefore it's nothing to do with me."

"Abuse of children happens in other sects faiths etc."

I'm sure that it does.

However the scale of the cover up and the heights within the organisation to which they reach does make this somewhat extraordinary.