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Venables - one of the James Bulger killers - back in jail

625 replies

LadyBlaBlah · 02/03/2010 21:39

here

Not a good advertisement for the rehabilitation programme they went on. I did hear that it was in Ireland and he tried to strangle a girlfriend..........but obviously that is not based on any factual evidence, just internet gossip.

Anyhow, difficult difficult difficult

OP posts:
PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 11:22

Why is it that seeing them as people is equated to seeing them as 'poor' murderers?

People who kill children as real, proper adults don't always stay in priosn forever: there was a case round us recently of soemone getting under tewn years. An adult, over 20. Why then is there a call for these children to get more? I don't understand that.

And yes, Wannabe's posts are great.

I have a ten year old who is aggressive and hurts people, I know for a fact he would never do what the Bulger children did (in part becuase he enver leaves my sight but also becuase he just would not). He has no empathy, for him because of a diahnosed SN but I understand that abuse can produce a similar personality type but precumably wiothout the parenting ds1 receives. Whern ds1 hit ten his beahviours did not stop. he is still quitre clearly a child- loves lego and his teddy ebar, thinks robots and Dr Who are fab.

It scares me to death that he could be prosecuted as an adult if I dared to risk for eg an after school club or half term club, and school agree to the extent that the LEA is finally thinking about provifding lunchtime support (thinking about- after years of being asked- no promises).

If my ds1, who has had a lifetime of love and support with appropriate therapy and care needs that level of help, how can be then just dismiss for eternity two boys whose needs were presumably created by deviant parenting and whose crimes were a direct result of that?

I am not a bleeding ehart: I beleive justice has to be served. What people seem to want though- the keys thrown away for ever for a crime committed by two children- is not justice, it is vengeance.

What about teh child who is still free- and has been apaprently rehabilitated- do people want to see him hauled back into jail? Whay, what is the point, how will that solve anything?

It wouldn't even act as a lesson becuase what aprent would let tehir ten year old know about the crimes against Jamie anyway?

BigMomma3 · 03/03/2010 11:23

Can you really not accept that some people are just 'evil' and obviously that includes children as all adults were children once! I for one do not accept that all crimes committed by children are due to some sort of 'abuse' and therefore all crimes committed by adults are due to abuse in childhood.

Especially in the case of these two as they had obviously planned all this and it was not an opportunistic crime. I do not believe any child, even at the age of 10, could not have felt empathy towards the pain this toddler suffered (and therefore stopped what they were doing) not matter how much abuse they had been through unless they were monsters which these two obviously are! Therefore empathy towards them is impossible.

albinosquirrel · 03/03/2010 11:24

I agree with Allidon.
What the two boys did was horrendous and no-one disputes that. What is disputed is the degree to which they understood what they did, compared to an adult and what level of responsibility they should have been expected to take. I remember the details of the court case and how barbaric that was as the boys didn't really understand the enormity of what they had done.
At ten years old the purpose of prison should be rehabilitation at least as much as punishment and I think it was an incredibly brave decision to release them before they had experienced the adult prison system - and I am just sad that this has happened as it makes it increasingly unlikely that this sort of action (release etc) should happen again and more likely that the hang 'em/stone'em brigade will win which i think makes society as whole worse.

I suspect that makes me a bleeding heart liberal....

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 11:25

'These two dragged a baby from his mother'

No they didn't, James sadly wandered off and was taken.

What they did was awful enough, it doesn't need embellishing

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 03/03/2010 11:26

Living in a world where events and people are 'black and white' is so much easier than trying to understand the complexities that I can see why you choose to do so, Milly.

Solutions to problems become much easier when you can view children as 'good' or 'evil'.
Some of us choose to attempt a greater understanding of the world which complicates things and makes solutions much harder to find.

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 11:27

Bigmomma in 20 years of studying Psych in various forms I have never yet found any reason to beleive some people are just evil, no.

Evil can be created certainly, but society has to take a certain amount of responsibility when that happens through child abuse: washing our hands of two children and the young men they will become is disgusting

Allidon · 03/03/2010 11:28

OK BigMomma so evil children are just born that way? This is a quote from the Independent article:

"No child is born evil. But they are creatures of their parents and of circumstance. Children who commit violent crimes almost always share a similar background. Their parents are poorly educated, unemployed and often suffer from depression or other mental health problems; many are drug abusers or on the fringes of criminality. They often have large families but are also divorced or separated.

An authoritative survey of the mental health of young offenders published in the British Journal of Psychiatry in 2006 studied 301 young criminals aged 10 to 18 years. It found that 74 per cent had a family structure which had broken down, with only 36 per cent of their biological parents still married or cohabiting. More than a third of them had been in care Â? with many moved frequently from one home or foster home to another. One in three had a borderline learning disability, and one in five had an IQ below 70.

Â?ItÂ?s very rare for a child involved with homicide or torture to come from a background with none of these risk factors,Â? says Dr Eileen Vizard, a child and adolescent psychiatrist who runs the National Clinical Assessment and Treatment Service for the NSPCC, and who gave evidence at the Bulger trial.

These risk factors expose such children to a range of damaging experiences. They may witness repeated domestic violence or sexual abuse from an early age. They may be exposed to adults having sex in front of them and may routinely view slasher films or pornography left lying around the house.

Â?They are brought up with no boundaries, or inappropriate ones,Â? says Pam Hibbert, who was until recently assistant director of policy at the childrenÂ?s charity Barnados and before that was a manager at Red Bank secure unit, where Mary Bell and Jon Venables served their sentences. Â?Children develop empathy from the way they are treated, not just fed and sheltered, but cuddled and stimulated. But the mothers themselves are often so needy.Â?

Many were themselves brought up by dysfunctional parents who transmit their inadequacies to a new generation.

Inconsistency is one of their hallmarks. Â?One night they get a crack around the head from their mum because sheÂ?s pissed; the next they get a cuddle; they just never know where they are,Â? says Gareth Jones, one of the countryÂ?s senior Youth Offending Team managers Â? who are the first members of the justice system to come into contact with such children when they break the law.

Typically, the inconsistency extends to discipline. These children are often allowed to roam the streets unchecked, but then arbitrarily subjected to harsh punishments.

The father of the Edlington boys was a violent alcoholic whose idea of instilling discipline was beating his children with golf clubs. He enjoyed forcing his sons Â? one of whom has been serving a sentence for mugging a woman of 68 at knife-point Â? to fight one another; if they refused, he hit them. He showed them violent and sadistic DVDs. Their mother, who has seven sons by three different fathers, admitted that she gave the boys cannabis to calm them down afterwards. At other times, neighbours reported, the young brothers were left to their own devices and were regularly seen scavenging for food or clothing which they pulled from skips.

Â?Such erratic and inconsistent behaviour, veering from the extremely harsh to the indifferent, cannot be called discipline,Â? says Pam Hibbert.

Though the tabloid press routinely uses phrases like Â?evilÂ? and Â?monstersÂ? to describe children who commit horrendous crimes, it is hard to escape the bald conclusion that such kids are victims too. The criminologist Professor Gwyneth Boswell of Boswell Research Fellows and the School of Allied Health Professions, University of East Anglia, researched 200 children convicted of extreme offences throughout the Nineties. She discovered that 91 per cent of killers and violent kids had experienced physical, sexual or emotional abuse or had experienced some form of traumatic loss like the death or disappearance of a parent. More than a third had undergone both abuse and traumatic loss."

They were just born that way though eh?

SpicedGerkin · 03/03/2010 11:28

'People who kill children as real, proper adults don't always stay in priosn forever: there was a case round us recently of soemone getting under tewn years. An adult, over 20. Why then is there a call for these children to get more? I don't understand that.'

No nor do i peachy.

So if there are just people who are evil, where do they come from? What's to stop you from giving birth to an 'evil' being?

MillyMollyMoo · 03/03/2010 11:29

No Peachy if you've seen the CCTV footage Jamie was looking around for his mum and crying and they led him out of the shopping centre, of course they didn't snatch him from his buggy but they had plenty of opportunity to take him to a shop or find an adult to look after him, but they knew exactly what they were going to do next.

Allidon · 03/03/2010 11:29

Gah don't know what happened with the formatting there, randoms As everywhere.

wannaBe · 03/03/2010 11:30

"What people seem to want though- the keys thrown away for ever for a crime committed by
two children- is not justice, it is vengeance." agree. And the reality is that it is not our vengence to seek. Nobody here was a victim of this crime. It is not up to anyone here to decide what punishment should be served - we have judge and jury for that.

And it is precisely because of the attitudes of some of the people here that these two needed to be given new identities when they were released. Yet I bet that they are the same people who would be commenting in the daily mail about the unfairness of the taxpayer having to fund it.

nickytwotimes · 03/03/2010 11:31

God, it must be nice to live in a world where there is black and white. Then you don't have to do anything.

I heard this story on the radio and thought the pitchforks would be out.

It was a fucking tragedy what happened, but writing off the perpetrators as evil doesn't help or stop it from happening again. It is an incredibly deep and complex issue which I do not even pretend to understand. If something like that happened to my kid, I would desperately want to retaliate, but as outsiders we do not automatically have that right.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 03/03/2010 11:32

'What they did was awful enough, it doesn't need embellishing'

Agree Peachy.
The way you are posting the details in 'grief porn' style is disturbing, Milly.

minxofmancunia · 03/03/2010 11:32

Excellent posts from Allidon and wannabe, I have been involved in rehabilitating children who've committed similar crimes on a secure adolescent mental health unit. Some of the case histories I've read make you feel quite sick because of what these children were subjected and exposed to during their formative years.

These children are victims too and to not feel any sorrow or empathy for their predicament would render the observer as pretty lacking in empathy too.

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 11:33

Milly they did have that chance of course they did, almost everyone on the palnet would have done that as well

But they did not do as you said, and what you said may well have misled someone not sure of the case: even I, remembering teh case well, double checked to make sure

MillyMollyMoo · 03/03/2010 11:33

Solutions to problems become much easier when you can view children as 'good' or 'evil'.
Some of us choose to attempt a greater understanding of the world which complicates things and makes solutions much harder to find.

Well good luck to you, you're going to need it, but I'd just ask roughly when do you think you might find the solution ? Because I am wondering how many victims there will be in the meantime, as the article quoted below states, the horrific parents are absolutely to blame for the actions of Venables and Thompson and yet we've released them to go on to be parents themselves so breaking the cycle may or may not happen, quite a risk.

WhoIsAsking · 03/03/2010 11:34

Um, I've just got to say that all of this "If you don't have compassion for these two, you must be a DM reading, pitchfork carrying, childish idiot" is not on really.

SpicedGerkin · 03/03/2010 11:37

'Well good luck to you, you're going to need it, but I'd just ask roughly when do you think you might find the solution ? Because I am wondering how many victims there will be in the meantime,'

Milly do you understand that no matter what we do things like this will always happen?

Executing or inprisoning for life, even subjecting a criminal to the same treatment they dished out is never going to change that fact, it just brings us down to the same level.

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 03/03/2010 11:38

'These children are victims too and to not feel any sorrow or empathy for their predicament would render the observer as pretty lacking in empathy too.

Quite. And as it is too late for teh biggest victim and all, and criminal justice has been served, why are so many seeking to then not help the other victims?

Not putting any sanctions in place would have been wrong but nobody here is saying that should happen, just that once those sanctions have been served it is time to move on. Now, if you are poor JB's mother or family then you will never ever see that and reasonably so, neitehr would I if it were my child- and that's why the system works as it does. The rest of us have a responsbibility to try and look further though.

A far better way to deal with any overhanging anger would be to ensure the systems are in palce to stop it happening again. Theya re not there. Why waste energy excpunding hate when you can save it and use for good?

wannaBe · 03/03/2010 11:38

whoisasking there's a difference though between someone who says they cannot feel sympathy for them and someone who says they would gladly shoot them, no?

Milly the difference here though is that these boys were taken away from the parenting that led to this incident. They were given eight years of rehabilitation which hopefully means that they have been helped to come to terms with the upbringing that led to them committing this crime.

Rantagonist · 03/03/2010 11:38

WannaBe 'You, on the other hand, are an adult. (aledgedly). '

Fucking miaow what a lazy, bitchy way to try and discuss anything.

SpicedGerkin · 03/03/2010 11:38

whois- really ok, but wanting to shoot children is a fine line to take?

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 03/03/2010 11:39

Whoisasking

There is a world of difference between not feeling compassion and posting dreadful and simplistic bile such as
'I would happily shoot the pair between the eyes'

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 03/03/2010 11:41

Xposts gherkin

ChickensHaveSinisterMotives · 03/03/2010 11:41

You know, it is possible to feel sorry for these two men, yet still think they should be punished. I would question whether someone who commits such a crime at such a tender age can ever really be rehabilitated. I do feel sad for the children they were, and the circumstances they were raised in. I also think that other people have the right to be safe, and that the parents of the victim have the right to feel that justice was done. I suppose I feel that prison for these individuals is more about our safety, and theirs, than rehabilitation. Maybe thats wrong.

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