Venables - one of the James Bulger killers - back in jail

[LadyBlaBlah]

here

Not a good advertisement for the rehabilitation programme they went on. I did hear that it was in Ireland and he tried to strangle a girlfriend..........but obviously that is not based on any factual evidence, just internet gossip.

Anyhow, difficult difficult difficult

Rollmops - I don't think we are going to agree on this issue when your view is that you carry a pitchfork high and proud, so it's best we agree to differ.

electra, gladly.

I wasn't being nasty - just that our pov are somewhat polarised

electra - Sure, people can change the way they think. Atheists become faithful Christians or vice versa. I always thought running was pointless and now I'm training for my first 10K race. So yes, people can change the way they think.

The question is: Can people change what they are?

Can a homosexual be "rehabilitated" into being heterosexual? If not, what makes you so sure that a sadistic killer can?

"I am sure they didn't think "we may as well do it, we will only get 8 years"

But they probably did think "We are only 10. What can they possibly do to us?"

If you read the Independent article it's clear that the overwhelming majority of child offenders come from a background of abuse or neglect, the actual figure was 91% I believe.

But not all......
What has happened to the 9% to make them act as they do?

Please look out for Film called Child A (or it may be Child B!)......loosely based on this type of case; examining the life for someone like Veneables post release......really really good film to trigger discussion.

"Can a homosexual be "rehabilitated" into being heterosexual? If not, what makes you so sure that a sadistic killer can?"

This is a bit of an offensive comparison, cote.
There is nothing 'wrong' with a homosexual, it is not a problem caused by abuse or neglect that can be rehabilitated.

"But they probably did think "We are only 10. What can they possibly do to us?"

I disagree. I think the possible consequences weren't something they thought about until after James had died, when they arrived home and realised there was a huge police hunt for him.

ItsGrim..., regards to "By 'good' homes, I mean homes that don't have abuse as a feature."
The boys I knew, came from fabulous families, academics as parents in one case, truly lovely people, pillars of community - well, they were until the deeds of their DS were found out. The horror, quilt, what-did-we-do-wrong, why...pretty much destroyed that lovely family. The other siblings were absolutely shattered and devastated.
He wasn't abused or unloved... he was a smart boy who just liked to cause horrible pain to others.

.MoreCrack.... how do you know what they thought????
Your argument is pointless, you are speculating as to what the killers thought. Ridiculous.
CoteAzur.... point about homosexuals was not offencive the least but a good comparison. Could a person change what they are.
Keep your über PCness out of here please

I said I think, rollmops ie that is my opinion

I believe homosexuality is who you are.
I don't believe a murderer is who are are as much as who you become

didn't realise that made me 'uber PC', but hey ho

One can have opinions as to what they did but one can not speculate as to what they thought. No-one can.

And actually, rollmops, I was replying to cote's post in which she speculated on what the boys 'thought' in terms of consequence. I was simply adding my opinion to the speculation.

"Keep your über PCness out of here please"

I am entitled to express my opinion just as you are yours, do not try to dictate what I may Or may not post.

What those boys did was absolutely dreadful of course but (as was mentioned on Question Time last night) I don't get why child killers tend generally to be demonised by the media far more than adult killers.

You would think they would be demonised less because they were only 10 (old enough to know better of course, but children none the less).

I agree with MoreCrackThanHarlem and yes offensive comparison indeed -- I don't believe people are gay because of their lifestyle experiences - imo that's nature as appose to nurture. And why on earth should one be 'rehabilitated' from being gay?

the reason behind the demonizing of kids than adults is we abhor it and wonder why and what and where. We shouldnt be we do as it frightens the crap out of us that kids can do this to kids. It happened again not so long ago didnt it but they didnt kill this time but I think if they hadnt been caught they would of with someone elses kid(s)

I have to agree that NOT all kids are abused go on to kill. Some are from loving families.

I read the Indie report as well and did in fact use that for an essay for my class but the facts remain will we every know the truth of his return will the press or the news stop telling us all about it NO they fuckin wont cos we as the media want to know what he did. We think he JV as an adult not a child should be re punished as we feel that his 8 years was nothing. We also want to know what is happening with Thompson as well as we are nosy that way. It is human nature after all.

My Question is where is the source from and how it got into the papers and is it fact or made up for our titalation once again. I havent read all of this thread so if it has been said where it came from sorry.

electra, read what was said before commenting please. The comparison was what someone is, i.e. nature, not what they became, i.e. nurture. Can anyone change what they are.

Surely the question of whether they are born evil or made that way, nature or nurture, it has to be a combination of both. I don't believe that a bad upbringing alone can make you evil and capabable of commiting a crime as awful as these boys did. There has got to be something inbuilt that makes one person able to inflict this kind of pre-meditated pain and suffering on another human being possible, where most of us would not be able to do this. Some children will have terrible childhoods and become passionate human beings because of this, not evil killers. Others will have lovely childhoods and become horrible children who turtore animals etc. for fun. This is the catastrophic combination of being born with the potential to become evil and having this nurtured by a bad upbringing. I use the word evil because that's what I believe they are, regardless of whether they were made that way or born like it.

Jack traw has said the have been 'serious allegations' against him,

the sun are reporting he has committed a serious sexual assualt.

Rollmpos - I did read what was said. Really, your tone is quite rude, and actually I don't understand your last point. The fact I don't agree with the analogy made does not make it follow that I didn't read it.

And I can post what I like - so don't presume to tell me what to post and when.

I agree with happymatleave. I think that the 'catastrophic combination' of both upbringing and innate characteristics made these men what they are now.

everyone's questioning if the rehab has worked and it looks asthough it has worked but not for venables, but it has worked for thompson.We have heard nothing of thompson and hopefully it will stay that way. I'm starting to think that yes children are a product of their environment but they also have traits from a child.Maybe rehab worked on thompson because he was a product of his environment and didnt display any traits of being violent from being a small child and that his behaviour is learnt behaviour, if it that case then the rehab would work because you can learn new behaviours and unlearn others.Where as with Venables maybe he has an underlying trait for violence ( as in some people have addictive personalities) and he cant unlearn those behaviours and that why rehab doesnt seem to have worked for him. Hope it make sense x

It does make sense

I think most people can unlearn even traits- that doesn't mean there are no exceptions though.

if it's true this is a sex offence then I hope he gets a whole life tarriff now (after a fair trial), I think there is a world of difference between adult and ten.

There is legally of course: a whole life atrriff cannot be given at ten, and it can now.

I had a good think about this (as someone who posted earlier and was accused of being a wooly bleeding pinko liberal etc, albeit in old posting name) and as soemone who has experienced sexual assault how woudl I feel if I found out my attacker was Venables?

I did know my own attacker ahd a cruel idf not violent childhood, repeatedly being sent between aprents who did not want him and told him that.

I think as best I can determine that i'd want

A) a full trial, fair, based on the crime that happened to me so I could get justice for myself;

B) The punishment to take history into account at sentencing;

C) I think i'd still have wanted Venables and Thompson to have beengiven a chance because I still hold the important of seeing 10 year olds as children and trying to combine punishment with rehab very dear (to me the age matter5s hugely as i'd have no problem with a whol;e life atrriff for someone who was adult at the time of the murder of JB), and crucially I don't think i'd want /thompson to have neen denied that chance as he appears to have grasped it, so far at least.