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Venables - one of the James Bulger killers - back in jail

625 replies

LadyBlaBlah · 02/03/2010 21:39

here

Not a good advertisement for the rehabilitation programme they went on. I did hear that it was in Ireland and he tried to strangle a girlfriend..........but obviously that is not based on any factual evidence, just internet gossip.

Anyhow, difficult difficult difficult

OP posts:
Clarissimo · 06/03/2010 11:28

Rollmops if you have categorical evidence that nature is more significant than nurture, I suggest you stop wasting your talents here and hotfoot vitv down to byour local Uni, the number of essays on the topic I have had over tyhe years where the best conclusion is 'a bit of both but nobody knows quite in what measure really/.

TheShriekingHarpy · 06/03/2010 11:44

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Clarissimo · 06/03/2010 11:49

TSH si their any evidence that Thompson is a public safety risk?

FWIW the 8 yaers sentence seemed short, and not adequate to make reparations, symbolic although they could only be, to teh victims family.

However asserting that both represent a safety risk suggests that either you are ignoring the facts of the second convicted killer of JB, or have some in depth knowledge of Thompson;s current status?

happymatleave · 06/03/2010 11:52

We don't know anything about Thompson though at the moment. Until this week we may have though that rehabilitation had worked for Venables as well. The fact is that we can only speculate either way about what sort of person Thompson is now.

Pofacedagain · 06/03/2010 11:56

I think any child who is watching violent horror films at a very young age and has no counter-effect from loving parenting is going to be at high risk of committing violent acts. I think society as a whole is culpable when violence is so glorified and made aspirational in film, tv and computer games.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 06/03/2010 12:06

The overwhelming evidence suggests that children who commit serious crime become what they are through nurture, not nature.
Until you are able to present evidence to the contrary I suggest you stop trying to state otherwise with no basis for your claim.

Clarissimo, great posts.

happymatleave · 06/03/2010 12:14

MoreCrack do you not agree though that you can have the wrong kind of nurture and still grow up to be a kind honest person? And therefore to become an evil cold blooded killer there must be something in your nature also? If not, all badly treated children would become killers/abusers themselves and this is not the case.

Rollmops · 06/03/2010 12:59

Clarissimo, I have not suggested that nature is more significant than nurture. However, what I was asking is - can one change ones nature.
Also, there is no conclusive evidence as to which of the two is more significant.
More Crack, please link to the 'overwhelming evidence' to back up your claim.

happymatleave, good posts!

TheShriekingHarpy · 06/03/2010 13:02

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Confuzled · 06/03/2010 13:06

I think it was more than nature and nurture; I think it was also the two boys in question feeling totally outside everything, rejected and isolated and then finding a friendship together that made them feel they had something in life. Two extremely damaged kids without boundaries or external sources of guidance started to guide each other and probably show off to one another as to how vicious and unafraid they were, and the outcome was catastrophic. Remember that case in New Zealand in the 1950s, where two teenage girls killed one of the mothers, preplanned, because their friendship was (plainly rightly) deemed unhealthy and the parents tried to separate them?

Thompson was 1 of 8 sons, all badly bullying and beating the next younger and their parents had a serious dv relationship. Venables was sandwiched between 2 sn siblings, his mother severely depressed and his parents separated; amicably but inconsistently (have since reunited, apparently). I doubt that either would have done something of this magnitude alone, but they egged one another on in violent dysfunction because all the other adults in their lives were too preoccupied to notice or intervene, and in Thompson's case extreme violence was a daily and frightening occurrence. I do also think that they probably felt powerless and so sought to vent their rage about everything on someone else very plainly powerless. Bullying carried to an almost unbelievable level.

I don't think it fair to say all their parents were as much to blame as they were. Thompson's mother has since left his father and apparently supported Thompson through his rehab and beyond, and Venables' mother was on a documentary a few years ago on mothers of killers, with face and voice disguised, and she cried as she said all she wanted to do was say to James' mother how desperately sorry she was, and that that poor little baby would haunt her until she died herself, she couldn't stop thinking about what had happened to him. She was very plainly absolutely devastated by her son's actions. They clearly had major failings and I'm not glossing over that, but there was clear evidence that Venables' mother at least had tried to stop his deterioration to some extent. When he wuld leave the house at night to roam she took away his shoes to try to stop him, and so on. I'm afraid a single mother of 3, 2 with sn, and herself depressed just is not always going to have the resources to get a disturbed non-sn the extra support he needs. If every struggling parent in society ended up with this sort of disaster there would be a lot of Bulger cases, and thank Christ there aren't.

I'm not sure how I feel to be honest. I know they were only 10, only children, but what they did was not similar to the Norwegian case. It was far, far, FAR crueller and more violent, and they were quite a bit older. There is evidence that may indicate planned intent, though to present that as a slam-dunk is not fair either; they may have stolen paint and batteries as magpies, not with intent as to how to use it, but they definitely fought quite hard to hand on to James when they had numerous opportunities to let a questioning member of the public take him to safety. (And my God, how do those poor adults cope, knowing they didn't? That would haunt you till you died.) Police involved have stated it was the most violent and cruel and prolonged murder most had seen in their careers, and it was against a baby. I used to focus on the rehabilitative elements, as a student I didn't consider retributive justice to have any point in this case as it could never comfort the mother and how could it deter, when it's such a rare crime and by definition the kids were outside the influence of societal norms? But I have my own children now. One is only a toddler. And my attitude to risk has changed. I just can't imagine risking it. I can't imagine that someone capable of such extreme cruelty at 10 can be healed to the point they aren't a serious and significant risk. I don't think they should have been freed really because they horrendous risk of reoffence is scary. However it isn't true to say no remorse was expressed, my understanding is that a condition of parole was insight and that would include remorse.

Gita Sereny wrote a book on Mary Bell, to answer the person who said we knew nothing about her, and apparently her daughter was a credit to her, at the time, at least.

I don't know. I am so confused on how I feel about this case. But... I wish people would stop calling him Jamie. It was never his name and calling him that is actually something James' mother has voiced as finding offensive. It was a tabloid nickname that reminds her of his murder, not his life. If it bothers his family then surely that should be respected. And the notion that Denise Fergus has any responsibility at all to anyone over this is disgraceful. How she puts one foot in front of the other every morning I do not know. You know she lost her first baby at birth - James was her second? More tragedy than any one human being should ever have to stand, and damn right she has the right to think her son's killers belong in jail. I think some of the sentiments expressed - that children of ten should be shot, that anyone of any age should be raped - are sick, but if she personally expressed them I would not blame her one iota. She, and James' father, unlike anyone here, has every bloody right on earth to say whatever she likes. To be sanctimonious about Denise Fergus while expressing compassion for the boys is seriously arse about face. I am not saying you can't reasonably feel compassion for two very damaged children. I am saying that to be able to extend human empathy to them in their lack of it, whilst demanding empathy from their victim's mother, is fucked up.

TheShriekingHarpy · 06/03/2010 13:07

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happymatleave · 06/03/2010 13:16

Confuzled - what a very good post.

Clarissimo · 06/03/2010 16:41

Confuzled I am sure you didnt mean it that way but I have a NT ds2 between 2 sn siblings and he is a gentle sould, could enver do anything like this; this is the second time in a week that having SN siblings has been giv en to me as a type of abuse and really, it isn't. It can be hard work and decent support (not avaiolable) can help, but it is not abusive and should not be linked in with it even in a discussion.

TSH You are tright society as a whole does not advocate it, but neither does it provide any sanctions for those who do allow it; we had a rather traumatised ten eyar olds over recently who has a histiru of behavioural issues whose first question was 'Do you lilke night of the living dead? do oyu have it? can we watch it? its my favourite film' (and a few otehrs, none of which we have otr have seen, incluidng terminator and something whose nbame escapes me now but DH assures me is quite scary even to him). School etc are well aware this child watches these films but it is not significant enough to trigger a SSD referral even with significant other flags.

Confuzled · 06/03/2010 17:39

I'm so sorry if my comment was that badly phrased. It wasn't having SN siblings I was focused on as much as why this particular mother didn't have the energy or emotional resources when stretched that thin to support him. I meant that a depressive single parent with SN and non-SN kids has a far tougher job than most, and her inability to meet his specific needs is IMO understandable in that situation, not that all mothers in that situation would be unable to cope. Apparently she hit him in frustration and so on for things such as not sleeping enough. I was trying to defend her from people here saying the parents were as much to blame as the boys were, which I just do not accept. A dad who beat a son with a golf club is IMO partially to blame. A struggling, but basically well-intentioned mother? Not so much.

Just so you know, my mother was a single parent, and I have a SN sibling. I am well educated, happily married, very close to and admiring of my mum, and - I hope - a decent mum myself. But at the same time, not everyone is as lucky as me/your kids, in having a mother with the energy, understanding and intelligence to ensure all her kids' needs are met as far as possible. That applies of course to all sorts of families, but sn kids do tend to take more energy and hard work and sanity than ble-bodied and neurotypical, I think. If John Venables' mother couldn't manage to meet all her kids' needs, I don't think that makes her a bad person, or to blame for what happened to James.

Hope that makes more sense. I'm afraid we all have flu and it's not doing wonders for my coherence.

Clarissimo · 06/03/2010 19:26

No problem.

As it happens my Dh has ahd depressive periods and yes, i do doubt had he been a single aprent that he'd have been their carer now- I suspect he would ahve moved in with my aprents; SN kids are often tough- and dupliates tehreof combined with depression more so. Sadly we lacked the resources then and now to help at all.

However I think whilst we as a society can understand that, and where there is disabiolity I think we do have a resoonsibility to provide help before crisis, I don't think a ten year old could possibly ahve understood the complexity of teh situation at all, and so I suspect a thump is a thump.

Confuzled · 06/03/2010 20:19

Oh, I agree - I'm not trying to say they didn't have very hard childhoods - I just think that saying that that societal failure to help a sinking mother in a tough spot makes her an equal murderer is obnoxious, and it's been said quite a bit, earlier in this thread.

TheShriekingHarpy · 06/03/2010 22:34

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JollyPirate · 06/03/2010 22:39

Rollmops - haven't done a link but if you read "Love Matters: The Importance of Affection in Shaping a Baby's Brain" it will provide more than enough evidence for the nurture side of the argument which MoreCrack was talking about.

Whether or not the damaged brain of an abused child can be "rescued" is a whole other debate.

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 06/03/2010 23:45

'More Crack, please link to the 'overwhelming evidence' to back up your claim'

rollmops can't link as is nightmare from my phone, but try and read

A coordinated response to child abuse and neglect, chapter 6, consequences of neglect
Cathy Spatz Widom's 'Cycle of Violence'
Bailey/Garborino Factors contributing to anti social behaviour and violence

I'm sure there is a wealth of evidence and someone more academically inclined could point you in the right direction.
I also read some interesting research on why some abused children become violent whilst others manage to lead peaceful and productive lives, can't remember off the top of my head, some of the factors were age, type of abuse, duration of abuse, presence of other support during time of abuse etc etc.

I can see this is a debate where our pov are so polarised we could go round in circles til Kingdom come, so I think I will retire now as this thread is taking up more head space than is healthy.

KimiGaveUpStarbucks4Lent · 07/03/2010 15:49

Latest on the news said he was found to have child porn.

slammer58 · 07/03/2010 19:41

I would have hoped that by removing these two lads from their Chaotic families, placing them into very very expensive care. Educating them on a one to one basis would have turned them into model citizens, with an excellent academic background, and ready to be meaningful members of Society........It looks that we may have failed.

electra · 07/03/2010 20:20

But we should remember that at this point it would appear that RT's rehabilitation has been successful to date.

donnie · 07/03/2010 22:36

confuzled; your post of 13:06 yesterday is absolutely excellent and I agree with everything you say.
Your comments about Venables' mother make me weep tbh - how on earth would any woman (or man) be able to cope with the knowledge that their own son had committed an act so atrocious and dreadful? the repercussions of such a deed resonate so far out into the wider community.

I hope - I really REALLY hope - that the rehabilitation of the other boy has been successful. Otherwise what else is there for us to cling on to?

wannaBe · 08/03/2010 09:56

tbh I think the newspaper headlines are just becoming more and mnore hideous in order to ultimately justify themselves revealing jv's identity.

It's worth bearing in mind that at this stage whatever jv is supposed to have done is still an alagation, and having committed a previous crime does not automatically make him guilty, and he is entitled to be tried for his current offence without the previous one being taken into account - he has served his sentence for his previous offence.

It's also worth bearing in mind that someone like JV, were his identity discovered, could easily be a target for someone who felt justice had not been served iyswim. I.e. were it images for instance it's entirely possible these could be planted in order to have him recalled to prison. Am not saying that's what's happened, just that it is entirely possible.

Katz · 08/03/2010 13:37

again i totally agree with you wannabe - the newspapers seem to want to out do each other in what he's done. Last week it was a fight at work with drugs thrown in for good measure, then a sex attack now child pornography. It feels like clutching at straws to me.

They don't know, my guess is in the last week/fortnight several men aged 27ish have been recalled to prison due to licence breaches, of these 3 fit the above crimes. The press are guessing as to which of these is JV since he has a new identity and if what else is written in the press is true, you wouldn't have been able to pick him out in a line up, hence they and those leaking these stories don't really know why he's back inside.

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