"Drink binge mother left children "

[VengefulSinner]

Story from BBC news site tonight.

I just do not understand people like this

The poor children, left alone while she gets off her face on drink and drugs.

I hope she loses the kids for good.

People keep saying "She must be punished in order to show to others that they should not behave in this way" - I don't agree. I don't think anyone would think "I must not leave my children alone, because I might get caught and go to prison" if they are not even going to think "I must not leave my children alone because they will be frightened and hungry and may get hurt" - And if someone cares little enough about their children that the thought of them being frightened/hungry/injured doesn't enter their head, it's probably best that they do fuck up (and get caught) sooner rather than later so that the children can be taken out of that awful environment.

If someone proves that they are not capable of looking after their own children I do think the children should be looked after by somebody else. Afford everyone the basic level of trust to begin with but once they have broken it, they should have to earn it back. Prison has its place but I think it makes more sense for criminals like murderers or rapists or attackers who present a danger by being free to commit more offences. Neglected children are better protected by being cared for by a relative or foster/adoptive parents than by locking the parents away, IMO.

ahundredtimes - I agree with you with regards to education and rehabilitation etc but in my opinion it happens far too late. For a lot of women waiting until they are actually mothers is not good enough. Support should be given to children growing up in dysfunctional families right from birth. They should be given access to opportunities that they would otherwise not have, they need to know that they are valued and that there are other paths open to them that do not revolve around having children.

We are all feeling awful for the poor 4 year old girl trying to feed her baby brother but in 15 years time we will be condemning her for following the same path as her mother. If children born into these circumstances are to remain with their families they need far more support than they are getting now. We are failing children like these at the moment.

Yes I agree with you dollshouse, and with Bertie down below.

God, society doesn't seem to have sorted this because it exists and will continue to exist, from victorian gin alleys to cocaine taking 22 y-olds. I like what Bertie said, I think I agree with that.

And yes, AF, it is depressing, I agree.

I believe we fail these children by leaving them with their birth families for too long

for trying too hard to "understand" and "support"

for too many excuses being made for bad choices made, and repeated again and again through several generatons

we should be making the adoption of older children easier, by couples/singles who are desperate for families

but are frightened off by just how damaged many of these children are by the time they get to this point

Brought tears to my eyes reading how the 4 yr old girl tried to climb up to get the milk powder for her baby brother

anyfucker - the boss of Barnardos was criticised for saying that sometimes children should be permanently removed from their parents because sometimes it just can't be fixed. I totally agree with him.

I agree with you ahundredtimes about education, support, rehabilitation - the opportunity should absolutely be there if the parents want to take it, but the sad thing is I think in many cases nothing is going to change these people, and as a society our first concern should be the children's welfare, and only then their relationship with their parents. Sad that it has to be that way

When I say that they need more support I specifically mean the children rather than the parents. Obviously parents need support but I think there are support networks and help available for parents in these these situation but there isn't anything for the children. They need to be able to "escape" their home environment.

When I take ds to museums I don't see children from these type of families there, why? Why do these children not have access to ballet or martial arts? Who helps them with their homework? Who inspires them to make a success of their life? A lot of children from these families grow up feeling unloved and worthless. It isn't fair.

Xposted ahundredtimes, I think we are on the same wavelength!

I am all for education and support. I heard an absolutely inspiring interview with a woman whose DC had been reported to SS by their school and with the help of this charity (and frustratingly I cannot remember what it was called), she turned her and their lives around. I think her sentence actually reflects the court's wish that she does exactly that.

That poor little baby - three months old, hungry & covered in piss, crying, - I'm sure it will be with the little mite, deep down, for life. I wish I hadn't watched the news, it's depressed me so much.

Animals are so much better parents, aren't they?

Yes spice, think you're right. I also heard an interview with a young woman who had been part of a mentoring scheme, since being a child, and how that had helped her break the vicious circle she'd been born into - sort of addressing the stuff dollshouse and Bertie are talking about. Though it was then agreed, on the radio programme, that whilst such schemes work they are v. expensive to run - and depend on other people's long-term commitment, preparedness to volunteer for most of their lives etc, and therefore difficult to implement on a national level.

She reminds me of Karen Matthews - a low IQ, promiscuous serial breeder. She went out to get drunk and probably have unprotected sex with the next man and get pregnant with No5 -another unloved, unwanted child to neglect.

Unfortunately, for women like her, having a man will always take priority over her children. I really don't know what the answer is but I don't think letting her off scot free is the answer. if she doesn't have another 4 kids by the time she's 30 I'll be surprised.

Sadly true, Riven. Well most of them - there are those that give birth and bu--er off straight away, but from watching Life etc they seems to be in the minority. Even slug mothers look after their los But some humans...

It seems to me that we have an increasingly selfish 'me first' and 'because I'm worth it' attitude that goes against putting your dch first. Sometimes it's not easy being a parent. Rough with the smooth & all that

thing is, if the children were to be adopted, they'd be split up - the chances of finding parents who want all four would be very slim indeed.

So it may well be better for them to stay with their grandparents. Certainly the court and SS, who presumably know a lot more about it than us, seem to think so.

Unfair to assume the grandparents are crap because their daughter is useless, btw. One of the most impressive brilliant people I know has a daughter who has always been a waster, drifting round the world and only contacting her children occasionally. But the children were living with their fathers so perfectly safe and loved - not least by their grandmother. Both sons who have their own kids have three each btw and are much more conventional, wonder whether they are reacting against their own useless mother.

So, can I get this straight - the mother puts her dch to bed at 9.30pm, friends turn up & they get stuck into the wine, then they go to a party. She stays out all night & all the next day, ending up at a pub, going home at 10.30pm.

In the meantime, someone has arrived at the house at 10am, and called the Police. Is that right? So presumably they didn't know where she was, babies were taken away to her parents, & she turned up much later to find the Police waiting?

I?m not generally of this mindset, but in this case, I would dearly like to see her locked up for a decent length of time. She deliberately subjected these children to physical abuse (deprived of food and liquid for starters), the equivalent level of abuse to an adult being very clearly an offence for which you?d be sent down.

She has absolutely no defence or mitigating circumstance of any merit.

When she comes out, I would like to see practical restrictions placed on her ability to have and raise more children, for example, agreeing to visits from social services on a weekly basis, monthly paediatric check-ups and a ban on alcohol consumption (with associated testing).

If she agreed to these, or other, conditions then she would be free to have and bring up more children. If not, then she shouldn?t be allowed.

Unfortunately, there is neither the will nor funding to undertake these sort of things. This sounds appallingly right wing I know (which I hope I?m not) but reading these stories and knowing other stories from friends who work in child protection, and who very much agree with these sentiments, it?s hard to see what practical alternative serves the rights of the child.

Regarding the presence or absence of fathers -- "Personally I don't embrace that - they weren't there and had one assumes no knowledge of it." They are off the hook completely then, because they had the good sense to abandon their children to the care of this woman? One of the big problems in this scenario is that there were three men who couldn't be bothered to use a condom, and who probably knew they were involved with a drinker, and who went ahead and had their fun and then bailed out. There is a fault of omission here.

I agree with SGB.

She made one mistake after another - hardly rash actions. Firstly she had a drunken party with little ones in the house - including a 3 month old. Then she got drunk and took cocaine. Then she went out to drink more, leaving her children alone with no food or drink. I agree completely that the fathers should be stepping up to help raise their children but she was the one who had custody of them......and failed miserably to act responsibly. I am in many ways a bleeding heart liberal but I just can't find it in me to excuse this woman's actions. And furthermore, I think to do so is wrong. Sometimes excuses should not be made - and people made to take responsibility. If she could not cope there were avenues she could have explored.

Thank goodness her children have been taken away, so often these useless selfish people keep their children and get to hurt them over and over again.

I know a woman, who I went to school with, with four dcs and she is a smack head. She leaves the six year old in a urine drenched bed to 'teach him', she is often smacked out and so the eight year old has been looking after her siblings since she was four..... she has been reported repeatedly but still keeps her children.

I think there should be some sort of sheltered housing with mentors and punishments for young parents who fail their children. A small community where they can learn to depend on each other and begin to be decent parents. Strict curfews and inspections would allow them to live very cheap in good housing. Then when they've proven themselves they can move out with outreach type officers.

Perhaps even mix them in with the elderly where they have to have responsibilities and it could be mutual support, instead of communities of people waiting to die and feeling cut off from the rest of us.

well, posie, apart from the "outreach officers" you are talking about how it used to be in this country

and remains so in many other countries

extended families all living together

the elder teaching the younger (properly) and not tolerating bad behaviour

proper consequences for doing wrong

"it takes a community to raise a child"

there is wisdom in that statement

Yes but we're so broken over here, perhaps this could be a start in mending this individual culture, getting people to contribute?