"Drink binge mother left children "

[VengefulSinner]

Story from BBC news site tonight.

I just do not understand people like this

The poor children, left alone while she gets off her face on drink and drugs.

I hope she loses the kids for good.

almost wish I hadn't read that as it has made me so mad and sad. What sort of society do we live in that people can do things like that to their own children.

Ugh. I can't believe all the bleeding hearts on this. She does not need understanding, 'oh dear, you made a mistake, what a shame'. That only facilitates this kind of behaviour IMO. With most things there is a clear right and wrong, and this was very very wrong, and making that wrongness unequivocal is what we need far more of in this society. Perhaps then it would get through to people that actually yes, people do care if you are a terrible parent, and then they would be more likely to think twice before doing shameful things like this.

There is so little shame in Britain any more; I didn't think much of the judge's comments about Home Alone either, what's wrong with something like 'this was a crime of terrible wickedness, I sentence you to five years in prison'? Let's not beat the bush

Nah SGB - if a bloke had done this I'd think he was just as shit. Probably worse actually because it's so bloody rare that a bloke gets left holding the babies.

That is very judgmental BOF - I hope your dc turn outr perfect other wise of one turns out wrong then the others according to you should be taken away.....

pnd or not excusing this is bollocks

so what when she woke up the next morning and thought ' four kids...nah they'll be a rite'

and her friends - they knew?? terrible horrible situation

Agree with someguy.

No I don't agree either SGB - and for that matter a fair bit of disapproval has been heaped on the fathers by some on this thread. Personally I don't embrace that - they weren't there and had one assumes no knowledge of it. Lots of parent aren't around 24 hours a day but their children aren't usually abandoned by their primary caregiver.

It's not (for me) about mothers as martyrs. That's just absurd - on isn't martyring oneself if one resists the impulse to leave four small children alone for 24 hours!

It's about a terrible breach of parent/ child trust, it's about neglect, it's about huge risks being taken with little lives. This was a crime - comitted by a man, a woman, depressed, drunk whatever. It was a crime and I think it's been dealt with to an appropriate level. I also think it's very appropriate for us to be shocked and judge this behaviour as wrong. That is a normal caring reaction. It's not about wanting this woman to suffer - but we can't play down the seriousness of what happened here. Her friends - why did none of them intervene - were they unaware or did they actually think it was ok? The woman herself - before she got totally smashed there must have been a point where she thought 'where is this going' - and if there wasn't then why the hell not? But saying 'oh it's ok - it only happened because she's alone/young/depressed/drunk/badly parented herself' doesn't do any of us any favours - this was not ok and we have to state that clearly.

I agree it AHT, Reality and SGB, I don't think this woman did this intentionally, to cause paoin to her children.

We have no idea what her day to day life was like/her mental state. What she did was very wrong/very risky. But I can't see her as evil and I don't think it was a rationalised choice on her part.

I have been a 22 y o single mother to one and I had loads of support, it's still fucking hard at times. I felt like running away. Fortunately for me I good friends I could ring who would come and support me, rather than get me pissed and take me to the pub .

I first heard about this story a couple of weeks ago and it made me tearful, particularly thinking about the four year old trying to reach the milk powder to make a feed for the baby. What is frightening is that she probably will get the children back after a certain length of time.

Makes me so sad when there are childless couples longing to have little ones and people who have been blessed with children don't take care of them. Friends of mine are currently waiting to adopt a sibling group as they can't conceive and I know they'd love to give children like these a good home.

"People are quick to blame those who fail at their jobs and consequently harm others ie social workers/doctors etc I don't see that this is much different to that."
Very good point

SGB, I think a man would have gone to jail for this, and quite rightly too. I don't think there is any mother bashing going on.

ahundredtimes, by your argument surely no-one should go to jail? It's a way of saying that people in general find what you've done so bad that you must be punished. It's also about deterring others and rehabilitation - it's not all about rehabilitation.

And considering MN is divided on whether leaving children to cry at all is cruel (a fence which I'm happy to sit on), well this makes a complete mockery of that!

Agreed SomeGuy.

Completely agree with northernlurker. I would feel the same whoever the person responsible for these children was - mother, father or other guardian.

So disagree with someguy!

Mostly because shame is a fairly useless thing when you think about it. Shame happens when you've been found out, it isn't something which stops you doing it in the first place. Guilt stops you doing it in the first place, when you've been found out - then you feel shame. Which is a bit late. If she did feel guilty, then she had another drink and another line of coke to stop feeling guilty.

Also isn't there an equivocal legal position on drugs in this country? It's illegal. Has that stopped people taking drugs? No.

Declaring something as being black and white doesn't actually make it so. If we could bang a gavel and shout 'there must be not more neglectful parenting EVER' does that mean neglectful parenting would stop? Nope.

I'm surprised that people are suggesting she is being harshly treated as a woman/mother. Seems to me that very often bad/criminal mothers get off with a non-custodial sentence on the grounds that imprisoning them would damage the children, whereas that never seems to be a concern when sentencing criminal fathers.

In this case she has no parental responsibilities, as the children are being looked after by their grand parents, so I don't see why she wasn't locked up.

Seems that men that behave like this are judged as simply bad/criminal and ok to be locked up without a second thought, whereas when a mother has behaved like this some people think all she needs is a bit of understanding, cf. the father who'd be languishing in jail.

Yes, I see what you mean Stealth. I understand the desire and need for punishment. But I also think there are times when we it's okay to look and work out whether punishment is the right course of action, or the thing most likely to bring about a more responsible parent.

I

"If she did feel guilty, then she had another drink and another line of coke to stop feeling guilty."

Maybe she shoudl have just gone home??

You sound very much like you are trying to justify her actions hundred.

ahundredtimes, I'm refering more to the judgement of society than the law. If you read The Guardian or the music press there are frequently several casual references to the journalist taking drugs. Of course it's not seen as shameful.

In this case the judgement I'm referring to is the 'oh she probably had PND/where were the fathers/she was young and had it hard', as against 'this is evil behaviour, five years inside'.

But shiney, does it matter what her intention was? She was criminally neglectful.

I'm pretty sure that when I first heard about this story a while ago, it said that the children had only been returned to her within the last few days as they had been in foster care.

Her behaviour is disgusting and she doesn't deserve another chance with her children.

but ahundred - what happens in this one case impacts on all of us. Example, prior history is a powerful teacher. So if we simply beavered away and sorted out this lass and got her kids back with her - well how does that experience though doubtless justifiable and right looked at only in terms of her - well what does that say to everybody else out there thinking of getting coked up and plastered on a bender whilst their baby screams alone? And what happens if the end result of that situation isn't just distressed and hungry kids but dead kids. There are so many things that could have gone wrong here, so mnay ways that those kids could have been hurt and nothing the mother did mitigated that risk at all - so if we abrogated punishment in this case, if we remove shame and resist the impulse to leap up and down shouting 'NO' - well what do we do next time? Don't we run the risk of tolerating this behaviour because we are so keen to tolerate the perpetrators of this behaviour?

I want to see this woman safe and happy of course - but I also want to see her children safe and happy and all the other children in this kind of set up safe and happy not crying for milk at 10am!

Some parents need to be shown what is right and what is wrong when it comes to taking responsibilty for their own children

I think it matters, twofalls. If she did it with deliberate and rational thought and thought sod the consequences, then that is evil. But if it was a stupid, ill thought out drunken mistake, made during the depths of depression that she feels awfull for now, then with the right support, supervision and help, she could be a good mother to the children. which would be best for all involved, inc. the children.

I doubt very much it

No I don't think I do sound like I'm trying to justify them. I do think you see my trying to understand them, and think about them, as a demonstration of excusing them though. Which it patently isn't.

Yes I see your point SG. But I think what she did is seen as Wrong. And everyone does want to see her shamed. In fact she is being shamed. Though god knows whether this will help her become a better parent - perhaps it will. Not sure being banged up will though.

Do we think her being locked up will deter other equally irresponsible parents from doing the same? I seriously doubt it - but have no way of proving this of course

A friend of mine works as a lawyer for social workers - and so is heavily involved in cases where children are taken into care and a lot of the time - in fact most of the time - the problems are around drugs.

I don't know if this is the case with her or not.