Children Assaulted/Critical but stable condition

[Claire2009]

Two boys aged 10 & 11 being questioned about this. Don't know how to do links but this might work

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7984392.stm

Also before I go if they were my kids I would'nt want anything to do with them either so FWIW if the mum gave tehm to SS because she couldnt Cope fair play to her.

I would'nt want to be associated with wannabe murderers either.

Media talk? That's from police officers actually.

But as I said abusees who become abusers = the shit that abused them. And deserve what they get.

But these boys are just 11 years old, very young still. Of course what they have done is dreadful, horrendous and most children of this age, and younger, know that such crimes are completey wrong and unacceptable and why. But so far it seems like these boys have not been brought up to think that way .... the media so far are suggesting that these boys have come from a family where crime is not uncommon (older brother already being convicted) and are not from a stable background, having already been put into foster care.

Thes ebiys do need punishment for what they have done, but running alongside that they need rehabilitation programmes so that they can learn to function appropriately in society - if they don't get the latter than chances are they will get worse with age. But at 11y they are def young enough to be rehabilitted successfully and not commit crimes int he furture maybe.

mamadiva - TBH police officers don't always see what happens INSIDE prisons and secure units. My experience from talking with prison officers and with actual offenders, and with YOP on the out shows that far more than that is what really happens. of course with some offenders they don't work or they slip through the net, but especially with children rehabilitation acn annd does work, without the bonuses of going to football matches.

If YO institutes are so cushy why is there such a high rate of suicide?

It doesn't help imo when the thugs who brutaly murdered JB are given new identities and most likly a hot line to the local police.
How long did the serve, not as long as the lads poor mum will.

I think it's quite right that they were given new identities. They would have been killed by vigilantes if they hadn't.

Why does this have to degenerate into 2 sides?Is there no way we can all see that both sets of boys need our sympathy and thoughts?As someone else said they weren't born like this.They were inflicting the pain tehy have suffered onto others.Wrong but still sad.Their mum didn't even appear in court .All of these children are victims of the perpetrators parents

Mamadiva no one knows the circumstances as to why they were put into care!!!

amen to that noddy.

there is a much bigger picture to this than 'string em up'

as people keep saying

the only people trying to keep it simplisitic are those saying who cares why they did it, they did it

whihc helps no-one and addresses no issues

surely delving into things, however unpleasant, allows society as a whole to learn and move on

what would be gained by executing them/impriosning them for life?

But what is the answer 2shoes? Lock children up for ever? What they did was awful and beyond what anyone could imagine. I persoanlly do think they should have spent longer inside, but I don't know if doing so would have made things any better or worse in terms of their rehabilitation and chances of going on to live a crime free life in society.

I do think that new identities were necessary as there are members of society who would hunt them down and kill them, which would obviosuly be wrong.

Again who the hell said lock em up for life and 'string em up' am I blind or did no one actually say it?

I don't think they should be locked up for life and not once did I say rehab does not work, I said it needs to be stricter than it is! From PERSONAL experience they are allowed to sit on their arses doing nothing and playing crappy games all day and running riot that other children who have not done worng would'nt get. There needs to be a tougher approach to this not just as I've said about 40 times now 'You were abused that's fine then' and again NOONE knows why those boys are in care that's all I said.

Why si it we are all so quick to assume they hhave been abused but the minute anyone says they may not have been it's speculation?

WIth regards to suicide rates, I could'nt care less TBH they were 'big and brave' enough to do the crimes if they can't face up to it then good ridden ce to bad shit.

I guess we shall have to disagree on what happens within secure homes and offender units. My experience is somewhat different. Yes more needs to be done regards rehabilitation but the public are none too keen on their tax money going towards "looking after" criminals so I doubt more funding will be given, so chances are some remain missed. But IME prison and secure units do not just ivolve sitting around playing games. On that point we shall have to agree to dsagree i guess.

"WIth regards to suicide rates, I could'nt care less TBH they were 'big and brave' enough to do the crimes if they can't face up to it then good ridden ce to bad shit."

Really? That's the nost heartless thing I've ever seen posted on MN. They are children!

And agree with Hula about rehabilitation - the people who complain that nothing is done to reduce reoffending rates during prison time are the SAME people who begrudge paying for prisons at all and think we chould just brush damaged people under the carpet

am not sure why you aer getting so aggressive.. you said earlier if it was your children who had been hurt you would murder the perpertrators.. you are clearly coming at this from a much more punitive stance.

i don;t know what the answers are

i don;t know the history of the perpertrators, but i would be willing to bet that they have not had a nice ,normal, safe upbringing, with rules, boundaries, lvoe, compassion and care. i would bet there is abuse somewhere along the line, be it mental, physical, emotional or sexual or a combination. i would bet there is little or very interrupted schooling. i would bet there were few if any postive role models in their lives

i don;t think the answer is locking them up in solitary nor do i think it is allowing them to play on a playstation all day.

the answer is not just what happens to these two boys, but to the children like them, they need to be helped before another terrible act like this ahppens.

as i have said before, abuse is a reason, not an excuse. but you really have to ask how children of this age can act like this. what factors have led them to this, taht at a young age , tehy feel their own lives and those of otehrs are wortheless?

none of that points to a normal start in life

Isn't it widely acknowledged that children who have been abused (by that I mean physical/mental/sexual or even just ignored totally) have brain markers missing that if they haven't learnt from a certain age they never will?
How to behave/interact, emotional intelligence, that sort of thing?

I am sure someone will come along and explain better, but my DB works in a Children's home and I remember him telling me all about it and how it had affected some of the children in his care.

Sorry for not making much sense.

I'm not saying they have'nt been abused, I'm not saying they have. I'm just getting a bit peeved being told to stop speculating when that's exactly hat everyone else is doing.

As I said from experience I cannot deal with confronting someone who has physically hurt someone in my family I know this, so does everyone else I know.

I don't grudge my taxes being used to rehabilitate people so long as it actually goes to that, I don't think it should be used to provide day trips all the time, SKY TV, and TV's etc. No they should'nt be in solitary confinement but they should'nt be living the life of uxury at our expense either.

As for suicide rates well... nowt to do with me...

Wow mamadiva you are hardcore.That is an awful attitude to have to children or people in general.It is quite obvious by the fact that these children are even in care that there was no family life to speak of.And also obvious they were abused in some way as if this was the act of normal loved cared for boys then it would be happening all the time.please think about what you are saying

I'm not trying to be hardcore I am not some little chav in a street I don't do rave dear.

I have no attitude towards people who do no harm but when it comes to things that affect me then I have every right to be pissed off. All I said was IF THEY HURT SOMEONE CLOSE TO ME they can rot for all I care I'm not saying these two they ahve'nt done anything to me. If it were you in the parents shoes I bet you would'nt be all oh that's a shame.

I know for a fact I would'nt.

Defends what your definition of abuse is I suppose.

Shannon Matthews hadn't been physically or sexually - but her mum was a work shy, promiscuous, heavy drinking, couldn't-care-less parent with a low IQ.
She didn't physcially abuse Shannon but she didn't show her any love or attention either.

Fags, booze and men were far more important to her than her own children. To some that's a form of abuse.

i think if one of my children were taken from me in an act of senseless violence, i am sure i would not be thinking/writing the same as i am here BUT i would hope that some small, sane, rational part of my psyche would stop me from committing an atrocity in return, and meaning my other child and husband were deprived of me, by virtue of me being in prison. i would be condemning them to two losses and even more crap to deal with.

what noddy holder said.

Anyway I expect all of the tawdry awfulness of these two brothers' backgrounds will be unravelled in the papers in due course. Get set for a nice cheery red top venge-fest.

BTW beanie - can't remember where I read about the sexual abuse but it wouldn't have been the Sun - maybe it was the BBC website. I read it in at least two different sources though.

I only have one child though would be different if I had another then I would have someone to think on.

Look I know I'm being a dick on this thread, I know I am but I have my reasons to have very strong opinions on the subject not of this case BTW.

s with regards to Shannon Mathews I know that was abuse I worked with abused and neglected kids for long enough so I would hopefully be aware of what happens.

I've read that the victims were sexually abused as well.

I do see where you are coming from, Mamadiva, I have two boys and the thought of anyone subjecting them to an ordeal such as this makes me feel physically sick.

However, I firmly believe that for these two boys to have acted in such a way, well, there has to be a background, reasons...because the alternative (that they were both just born "feral" or "evil") is just too awful to think about.