Children Assaulted/Critical but stable condition

[Claire2009]

Two boys aged 10 & 11 being questioned about this. Don't know how to do links but this might work

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7984392.stm

'As far as we know these two children have no medical reasons for doing this'

But we 'don't' know

and one day it could be our sons, and then you won't know either.

So it can easily be approached from the side of there probably isn't, or from the angle of maybe there is, but each is just as well informed.

raed my post perhaps about why people like myself take it eprsoanlly: children like these etc- that does mean children like my son, and fatties. It just does.

Yes but saying things like so my son should be lockd up then nice..

Is just weird IMO because well no one did bloody say that, so whats the point in reading into it like that putting blame on people for having an opinion.

At the end of teh day everything that anyone says will cause offence to someone so chat forums should just be shut down if we are going to get upset about everything.

I have nothing against anyone with ASD or anything like that (sorry am not sure what it is your child has) I just don't see how that has anything to do with what we are talking about.

yes its asd, but itsrelevant as what he has in common with perps is aggressive child.

I deleted my post in the main about ds1 / suicide but got just as upset as fattie: if there'stwo of us feling that way maybethat doessay something.

I could leave the thread but I need to berepresented in this debate

Well I do apologise if I have made you feel this way, I am a bit --of- an arsehole heavy handed when it comes to this kind of stuff I know I am but I genuinely did'nt mean any offence to yourself or fattiemama regarding your own children.

peachy your explanation helped me understand the one sidesness(not sure if that is a word) just hope none of the familiees of the victims ever come on mn.

but watchtheworld Ld/smahave differentaffects

ds1 has no empathy: he doesnt have it full stop. Other peoples emotions are simply non existent to him. he knows that death is irrevocable but doesnt see why that matters in someone who deosnt generally affect him.

2shoesI am strugging to understand if your ast post was an I understand or a dig?

mamadivayou're not an aresehole

there are farlesstolerantpeopleout there, that what petrifies me.

I don't think it was an intentional dig but can see it myself.

I assume it was just worded wrongly that you have 'justified' your side (not that you have to) but I doubt that the parents would see it teh same way.

Thats just hw I took it thoug.

peachy it wasn't a dig

Watchtheworld - that's an interesting question (about the lack of empathy in, presumably, non-sn individuals). I don't think you're alone in asking it.

I found one article that was written by a clinical psychologist trying to explain it in simple terms (though he didn't really go into it). But his main thrust was to say the crime was possible because of a lack of empathy but he didn't really go into cause of that. Though he did suggest poor parenting to have a role. (Mind you, his example was Jeffrey Dahmer, and it really wasn't clear that he wasn't non-empathic from early on.)

I guess it's a difficult question. Why? Is it hard-wired in some individuals? Learned in others? Can it be unlearned? Are there different types of non-empathy? (I'm sure there must be).

I had a hunt for the article but couldn't find it, sorry.

Actually, the aspect of this that continues to really surprise me is how full of holes the care system is. and not just in Doncaster. The children who allegedly carried out the attack were in the system, though clearly too late, and in the weeks leading up to the attack were being reported again and again. It speaks of a sort of acceptance of all sorts of behaviour, from poor parenting to extremely dysfunctional behaviour in children, that there is no mechanism for dealing with.

It's awful, really. And the situation is not going to improve because it would be far too expensive. If it's like this after the years of economic plenty, goodness knows what's going to happen in the coming economic and political climate.

And to make it really clear, the article was not really about sn-related "lack of empathy". I know so little about any of this, I'm not even sure that's the right phrase to use.

And I really don't want to have a dig at any other posters. In fact, reading your posts, fm and peachy, has made me increasingly despairing about the all-round lack of support.

I do wish, when there had been more money about, it's places like this it had been put. Labour did at least make a start, putting early intervention on the agenda, setting up small schemes for children "bubbling" just below the criminal threshold. And they did change the culture, so that we were permitted to talk about this kind of thing in terms of society's responsibility. But just a start, nowhere near enough.

It'sdifficult to put into practice anyway CB- there aren't many like FM and I who actuallya dmit it: we're quite unusual in that I think, maybe its easier if you have a dx?

I imagine the abused child is a lot of factors... learned behaviour, negative attention at it sevreest, a complete lack of self worth (I mean you Mum is oyur Mum- if she disowns you....! I've seen that in MIL and FIL (both grew up with mothers who chose to be there and both have issues). poor empath, complete feral nature with no idea of morals..... pop all that in a mix and its pretty combustible. Psychosis isn't that far off some aspects of asd and I think you'd need to be psychotic to do what the kids did wouldn't you? But that's a real mental illness.

Society dos turn out kids like th4ese but very rarely. I don't thinkn its too much to imagine that thats when all the factors areexactly whats needed to create it; I'd bet there are a lot of near misses.

2shoes- that'sOK then, I'd rather ask than assume and fall out with you .

I've not read the papers so don't know hats been said by the aprents of the boys- have they amde a statement? If not we shouldnt assume anything:: we should remember the aprents of Jimmy Mizen, they were the least vengeful aprents imaginable and I had great respect for them; any way a parent feels or acts after something like this is acceptable almost, but if it were me I'd like to hope I could use them as an example although i doubt i'd be strong enough.

oh peachy we will not fall out

fiwi know i am a pinkoliberal (I even own the name in my registration LOL) but there needs to bea few of usto balance the other extremes thatexist.

Also, we shouldn't necessarily assume that these children don't have SN. If they have a chaotic home life and associated difficulties, I can imagine it would be very difficult to disentangle SN from purely behavioural issues. I know that my nephew who has ASD was only diagnosed young because he has a loving family who have communicated closely with school and finally got him assessed. Getting a DX when you come from a neglectful family isn't going to happen I'd imagine because the authorities are likely to be firefighting so much

true sm, I fought for ds1's dx but I also know a mum who fights her son's dx and assessment (anti labelling my arse, anti responsibility). and itseemsI missedds2'sadhd until 8 according to senco, though i blamt on lack of concept ofaverage- I had him pegged as it ooops!

Andquite often in famillieslike this the parents have sn also, which exaccerbates things.... not necessarily ata dx'able level perhaps but genetics are complex

watchtheworld - Ds certainly undestands that death is final. What he would have difficulty in understanding is how his actions culd somehow cause the death of someone.

the reason i take comments like yours so personally MAMADIVA is because its too easy for people to make statements about children like these boys without knowing the facts.
It could VERY easily have been my son who had assualted these to children. so your statement should hold up in that case.

You cannot make wild geberalised statements but when asked to apply that to a real child become defensive and say "well not your child obviously" if you want your way to be how the world is then surely by your own insistance it should apply to all.

i don't think your an arsehole and i've not been offended vy what you've said as i know it is probably a vie held by millions. sadly i can only hope to enlighten one person at a time.

all i ask is that you consider the possibility of extenuating circumstances that we are unaware of before calling for them to throw away the key.

Like Peachy, i always read threads like these and also the "my child got hit at school" and think of my own children. i have the advantage of have 2 children. my DS and a very placid and gentle DD who is entirely NT. i am able to view both sides of the argument from a position of experience.

2Shoes i think it is everyones hope that the two boys that were attacked, and indeed any others that may have been assaulted previously, are counselled and have a lot of help to overcome the trauma of this incident.
Sadly there is as little funding for victim support as there is for children with complex behavioural problems. We can only hope that the high profile of their case loosens the purse strings a little.

(can you still not name change?)

ta'DAAAA!

thanks 2shoes.

thats better as you are so not fat

and that, 2shoes is why your my mate.

Surely boys of this age must take some responsibility for their own actions.

If they are so "out of control" then why were they allowed to be out unsupervised?

Yes the parents are responsible but a child of this age can think for themselves.

What a dreadful time for the victims and their families.