Children Assaulted/Critical but stable condition

[Claire2009]

Two boys aged 10 & 11 being questioned about this. Don't know how to do links but this might work

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7984392.stm

" But when funding collapses what do we teach the recipients- that yet another person they trusted just vanished?"

Peachy that is so true.
Especially as that person has built up the recipient's trust and got them to open up a bit. I think it can sometimes make for a worse situation than not having the mentoring at all, in some cases.

Leningrad - so true. A charitable interpretation is that people (such as me) feel drawn in but impotent and that gap between feeling concerned and being able to do something is sort of filled by the media with "information". Information is limited, and can never fill the gap between your desire to help and what you can do ... so you get all this weird, "gawping" detail.

A less charitable interpretation ... . Well, unrelated, I know, but today's papers are filled with stills from the video footage of: a mother shooting her son in America; a schoolgirl being run over by a police car; the man who died at the G20.

At least two of those have a really questionable relation to public interest and their being in the papers makes me feel slightly ill.

Have not read all of this thread as it is very long, this case has made me think very hard about the kids I have taught as I could see some of them doing this. I have taught kids who have set pupil's hair on fire for a joke, posted shit through people's letter boxes, sexually assaulted both boys and girls. I found it very very hard not to dislike these children as they terrorised pupils in my year group and because of our obsession with inclusion there was little I could do. I did moderate my view once though when I found out that one of the boys was selling sexual favours in town in return for a bag of chips.

Twinset

It made me think about children my dc have been at school with.

There's a massive load of behaviour out there that is really not OK but never quite hits the threshold of "headline news". Ime, it's often really awful behaviour, clearly pointing to bad stuff going on elsewhere, but doesn't ever really seem to get any real help other than what schools can intermittently offer, on an ad hoc basis.

There really seems to be so little on offer before kids do fall into the criminal system. (Though I believe there are a few schemes in operation). That's bad for everyone.

I do feel sorry for the kids, and wish there was more help for the families. But I have to say, it's made me think very hard, this week, about what schools are dealing with. I spent this week thinking back over ds' (primary) school experience in particular and thinking how hard schools have to work to deal with kids coming in with big behavioural issues.

"WIth regards to suicide rates, I could'nt care less TBH they were 'big and brave' enough to do the crimes if they can't face up to it then good ridden ce to bad shit."

So if i was unable to get the help my son has recieved and his agression was still a problem, then he could very easily have seriously hurt or even killed a child.
only recently he had a meltdown because he thought someone had pushed past him in the corridor. he punched the child to the ground and held them there. unfortunatly the child had mild CP and could very easily have had a siezure whilst on the floor broiught on by fear.

my son wouldn't have been aware of the consequences of holding her down and would probably have mistaken her convulsions as her struggling to get up.
he could have killed her.

a fact that makes me sick to my stomach.

but i guess if he was "big and brave enough" then he should be thrown into a young offenders unti and to deal with his own guilt, which would dawn upon hi once explained carefully, he is a very compassionate child and highly emotional. it would almost certainly drive him to suicide.

but im glad i'd have your support should that happen.

I think the point is that by 10 or 11 children CAN do serious damage. They obviously have problems of some description and are not 'normal' because 'normal' people don't do things like that but you have to weigh the advantages of them being relocated to a secure unit/young offenders institution to them being fostered in the community. Obviously an intensive course of therapy in the community would be best for the two boys but how many other people might be hurt in the meantime?
Ultimately those children are dangerous, by 10 even a child of well below average intelligence should know that what they did is wrong and inexcusable. Plenty of people have dreadful childhoods and don't end up like that.

I for one hope they are locked up for a very long time, if they can do this at 10 God only knows what horrors they'll be capable of at 20 or 30...

I am sure it has been done but I would be very interested in research into people who have grown up with abuse and been able to live "normal" lives and parent their own children effectively and with love.

I come from a very dysfunctional abusive family as does dp and without sounding smug we often talk about what it has that enabled us to escape.

It has not been an easy road, I had a huge breakdown when dd was born as I just could not cope, I ended up in hospital and think a large part of that was the fect that in raising my own child I had to revisit my own childhood. I also have no positive parenting role maodels from my family apart from my grandparents who were no longer alive to provide support.

I think for me education was key and that is why I became a teacher. I think if I had not had my education there would have been no way to come back from being a homeless single parent. But I had qualifications to fall back on and I have been able to surround myself with positive role models in my work colleagues.

so we as a society should judge children more harshly than adults?

if the 4 people in this storyline were mid 20's then it wuldn't have even made the papers. it would have been just another saturday night outside the local pub.

the people involved would have got a few months for A/GBH. maybe wounding with intent would have had given a year or so.

men are found guilty of brutal rape and are released after 3 years.
they are convicted of the murder and are out in 10 years.

and yet you honestly believe that a 10 year old child should be locked away for 30 years?

What sort of world do we live in where a child is deemed to be more responsible for thier actions than an adult.

I just think that the safety of the majority should be the first concern, not any pandering to be PC.
I think adults should pay harshly for their crimes too. There definately needs to be more of a culture of taking responsibilty for your actions than there is at present.

I just think that the safety of the majority should be the first concern, not any pandering to be PC.
I think adults should pay harshly for their crimes too. There definately needs to be more of a culture of taking responsibilty for your actions than there is at present.

my son should be kept locked away then?
nice

there needs to be parenting classes - resources to enable an underclass culture of social irrisponsability to be broken. reinforced universally across the board - that this parenting standard, is the standard we expect. FOR ALL.

T&P i'd be interested in that also, but it's the cases where disaster is the resullt that attracts attention, not the ones who pick themselves up.
But the difference is crucial and if we could locate it maybe we could help abuse victims before they do become abusers? We do know that some do, certainly not all.

I do know that I could never do as the mother in this case did and deny my children: i'd rather die. I'll take a thousand beating at ds1's hands rather than that. Because I can rationalise what is him, and what is ASD perhaps?

Fattie . I thihnk if ds1 died some eople I know would be glad. I feel sick thinking of that, but I know it to be true. DS1 doesn't tink he has no reason for what he does; a msiinterpreted knock or word is all it takes. But there's no help with his AS dx so we just muddle on as best we can; if he does go on to offend seriously then I will blame society / NHS / etc because we have begged for help and received none. I am a loving mother; I am not a Psychologist.

Bella we don't lock people up becuase of what they might do, but because of what they have done, surely? As fattie says this sort of GBH happens regularly amongst older people but gets at most a mention in the paper; treating someone more harshly becuase they are young, rather than taking active measures, seems awful.

I don't thin community support is UK workable..... the UK seems governed not by care and community but by red top fuelled anger. Good (As in functioning) EBD schools are what's needed. Good is important- the ones we have here- , i'd move Heaven and Earth to keep ds1 out of there because they achieve nothing but a worsening of the childs issues and, far mroe a keep them out of sight idea than active input. If I thought they could help ds1 I'd fight to get him into one (day obv, nobodies taking my baby) as I did with ds3 and the SNU place he needed.

the problem is that most EBD schools are just 4 walls used to contain children unable to remain in MS. they are there because they fullfill the LEa's legal requirment to educate these children. they are worse than useless as they just compound the issues most of teh children already enter with.

the percieved "no provocation" is something we face with Ds as well. to the outside world no one did anything to him to cause such a violent outburst, but to him it was a look, a grin and specific word a brief touch...anything.

whislt with very close supervision you can minimise these outbursts with pre emptive distraction and containment i would declare myself a genuius in all things ASD if i said i knew how to prevent them altogether.

unfortunatly the two biggest factors here are societies unwillingness to take responsibility and a lack of funding into the rehabilitation of damaged children.

I cannot agree more that parenting classes and raised standards of expected care from parents needs to be enforced. i see so many families where i am astonished that they are not under close social services scrutiny. but lack of money means that unless the child is actually hospitalised, arrested ar sexually assaulted nothing is done.
we close our eyes to bad parenting or turn our backs on the "chav culture"

Blame does not fall squarely at the feet of the mother but on the shoulders of scoiety as a whole.

I agree with the aprenting classes but also know that you can teach many people all day every day but you can't make them trans;ate that into anything at home. Plenty of people have the potential to be excellent aprents and can't be bothered. I recommended onw such family to have the children removed; they weren't. Seven year old on streets at 3am, Mum drunk every time I visited at 3am (start of shift, the earlier the more sober)...... no shame in that either, carrying drink bottle. When that's what you're up against it's hard action or no action, but no action is the easier option .

at least one victim has left hospital, the other sounds like is in lots of pain

Poor kids. I was attacked a long time ago. I was an adult and the attack wasn't anywhere near so serious. In fact, laughable compared to this. But I'm still scared travelling about on my own.
I really hope for them both to make full physical and mental recoveries.

I wasn't talking about people who might offend, but those who have, if you have proven yourself to be a danger to society then, IMHO you shouldn't be a part of that society until you have proven you are no longer a risk. If you were going to lock people up based on who might offend then I guess you'd have to lock up everyone.

Well in that case OK- but the imperative on the state is to create a situation where the perpetrators risk of repeat offending can be dramtically reduced rather than just locking up (I know you didnt say that).
And assuming that a child of 10 with the right help will still be a risk at 20, 30 is not fair either- any offender needs to be assessed on release to assess their risk after intervention, as best as can be done anyway.

Not ignoring 2shoes etc but have already given my sympathies to the victims; putting it in every post would become a farce.

Also... found a study suggesting that people convicted of DUI had a much higher recidivism rate if mental health disorders etc were involved; that in itself (if one assumes that this can be also assumed in other crimes) is a good enough reaosn to spend and invest time and money assessing and treating any underlying disorders: at some point these boys will be released, if high level input to address and dx any disorders also protects otehr people then its double bubble and lifts it from accusations of my ilk being liberal wishy washy to the most useful strategem long term for all.

peachy, you could discuss how the victims could be helped, they will be traumatised.
but I suppose that isn't as important.

I know what you mean bella,

fattie from what I am led to believe so far no one is talking about your son so why you feel the incessant need to take offence about him is beyond me. As far as we know these two children have no medical reasons for doing this if they did I would feel a lot differently about it all. Same as I would if it was an adult.

I have said several times on this thread that the justice system on the whole needs a shake up both the childrens sector and the adults sector. From what I have seen and known it is a hell of a lot easier than it should be.

Regardless of age people should be taught right from wrong and punished when they decide to go against it. The only way children like these boys are going to try and keep on the right side of the law is if they know it is not something to be messed with. YO and prison should be used alongside rehab process and intensive counselling to find out the root causes of these things and only when they can show they know how they are meant to behave should they be allowed to leave. Whether that be a year or 3 years for the sake of the public offenders need proper attention.

Thing is though 2shoes I am totally on the real victims side here, BUT the victims will hopefully get the right support, counselling and therapy they need, what worries me is that the perps will not and that bothers me because what will they do next time?

Not so much for them but for the sake of the general community we need to make sure these two are taken care of properly now and as to a question you put earlier no way would I want them near my child or any other child right now.

It's bad enough I have a rapist living near me now and that boils my blood more than anything but it also scares me that this person did not get the punishment he deserved! So who will he move onto next?

Of course it is; I also posted that I hope they were getting the right help to get them through this. But the difference is that IS in existence ATM... asuming victim support are as active there as they are here after my little incident alst week then they will actively pushing to help, to give proper support. I can't move for letters / etc and that was something minor.

Also as well- what is there to debate there? It's awful what hapened. they should receive the help. Who on earth will disgaree? Whereas on the flip side there are a lot of debates to be had about what should happen to the perpetrators (and I have been deliberately using that term to indicate that I see the difference between each set of children)- and also, as fattie and I are aware from every day, about how we can STOP these things from happening. Because we can't change the past but we can the future hopefully. And part of that is having a system where the right asnwers for the perps are identified in order to stop anyone else becoming their victims isn't it?

And absolutely this is personal to me because I can clearly envisage the day when I am sitting here on MN reading people saying what a horror my sion is and how the key should be thrown away etc, and I know how that will tear me apart as I love my son as much as any other woman loves hers, regardless of the aggression. So I want to create a world where offenders are looked at as composites of the causes as well as the outcome of their actions.

Every time I see something like this, or even a thread about a nasty bully school situation, I see my son. It wold be impossible for me not to really. As well as the other side: I ahev as you know four children and the experiences that go with that. I hope I an keep the aggression focussed on me for ever but I can't nopt feel some level of empathy for the perps as a result, at elast at the level of being aware that aggression is only one part of the whole child.