Children Assaulted/Critical but stable condition

[Claire2009]

Two boys aged 10 & 11 being questioned about this. Don't know how to do links but this might work

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/south_yorkshire/7984392.stm

if you have worked with abused and neglected children i would have expected a different resposne? you seem to think that their terrible experiences are negated and rendered irrelevant if they go on to commit crimes/violence themslves, regardless of the fact that they most liekly ended up comitting those crimes partialyl due to their abuse and neglect

you cannot unravel the actions of anyone from their upbringing

"WIth regards to suicide rates, I could'nt care less TBH they were 'big and brave' enough to do the crimes if they can't face up to it then good ridden ce to bad shit."

I think that's pretty indefensible tbh

If one of my children were taken from me in this way, I can't be totally sure, but I think I would be too busy grieving and trying to keep my head/the rest of my family above water to be pursuing revenge against two disturbed children. The whole thing is an awful tragedy - in the true sense of the word - and an indictment of our care system and our general approach to children and young people in our society.

Baying for blood is just pointless and unintelligent, and baying for children's blood is beyond the pale. IMO. Punishing them harder and harder and more publically (what do we want, the rack? Public flogging?) isn't going to undo the wrongs done to the two injured children, is it?

Well as I say, maybe I have jsut been lucky but the 30/40 people I have known have been abused in some shape or form, I have mentioned my dad before won't go into that, but they ahve all managed to get past it one way or another or most of the children have managed to realise that it is'nt right.

Maybe it's just all the ones I know who are lucky enough to manage to get passed it but that's not even what I am arguing here the fact is that I am saying we don't knw but am being told to stop speculating when no one knows anything so we are all speculating.

It just seems that if your opinion is not all ladedah roses and sweetness then it should not be voiced.

I respect all of your opinions I just wish that people would realise that not all people have the same opinion.

"WIth regards to suicide rates, I could'nt care less TBH they were 'big and brave' enough to do the crimes if they can't face up to it then good ridden ce to bad shit. "

I hope that mamadiva does not work with children, yet alone children who are emotionally damaged, if that is her attitude. If she is telling the truth, how would she feel about her employer reading such comments.

I have had no experience with YO insitutions, but I do think EBD children can change if shown an alternative.

I know children who were sufficently badly behaved to get expelled from school, although they have not done anything as extreme as these children. I have seen such children change when given suitable help to control anger etc.

Children need to shown that they aren't instrinically evil and an alternative way of treating people. Yes, they do deserve carrot as well as stick.

AND AGAIN I DO NOT WANT ANYONE TO BE HUNG OR SOLITARY CONFINEMENT OR BLOOD.

I JUST WANT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM TO STOP BEING SO QUICK DO DISMISS CHILDREN WHO HAVE BEEN ABUSED AS INNOCENT!!!

THERE NEEDS TO BE A BETTER REHABILITATION PLAN TO ENSURE THAT THESE CHILDREN REALISE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE AND ARE ABLE TO DISCUSS THE REASONS BEHIND IT WHETHER IT BE ABUSE OR ANYTHING ELSE, FOR THE SAKE OF THEM AND OTHERS AROUND THEM. WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO JUST PUT THEM 'BEHIND BARS' AND LEAVE THEM TO THEIR OWN DEVICES WHILST THERE RATHER THAN SPEAKING TO THEM ABOUT IT, IT SHOULD BE DONE IN PRIVATE THERE SHOULD'NT BE A MEDIA OUTCRY SURROUNDING THESE CASES IT'S NOT THE MEDIA THEY NEED AROUND THEM IT IS SUPPORT SERVICES TO FIGURE OUT WHY AND HOW THIS WAS ALLOWED TO HAPPEN!!!

COMPRENDE???

This is what I mean by no one listening.

I don't work with them anymore gave it up when I was pregnant.

As I said yes that comment was out of order and I apologise for that.

But children need to learn that their actions are wrong abused or not, it can't be allowed.

I was one of those kids who was expelled from school, was an alcoholic at 15 and treated people like shit ebcause I thought everyone owed me. I got passed it with a lot of time and effort but also with punishment I realised I was wrong to do this or to do that.

This is what these children do not get they don't get the time and effort invested in them to make them see their actions are wrong.

Did anyone ever see the film/Documentary Hold Me Tight, Let Me Go?

it's been on BBC4 a couple of times. it's one of the most heart warming things I've ever seen. Set at the Mulberry Bush school - a boarding school for children that have suffered severe emotional trauma which has affected their behaviour. They had all been excluded from normal school and some are considered too damaged to be fostered.

The MB school has a very highteacher/carer to child ratio. The children receive intense therapy but are loved and nurtured too. However they are punished for hurting other children or teachers and made to apologise for it, they also have to tidy up when they trash their rooms etc.

Most kids were there for a year and the change in them was extraordinary. There are clips on You Tube.

That sounds good Nancy will see if can find it online later I think.

DS1 injured me today, in a meltdown. I can only type with fingertips on my right hand- my wrist isnt moving.

I bet you if he'd been born to Scrote family he'd be in the news any day now; I'm pretty well up on ASD's / parenting etc (worked for a parenting charity) and yet I can't get a cap on it.

So mamadiva whilst I know you apologised to even think that there are people out there thinkiing about him like that is heartbreaking. And kid with asd is at high riosk of depression and associated suicide.
You know, in town today I had to restrian him (he held it together over a weekend that included ds4's birthday, he did well really) and someone took a photo of me. FFS.

So basically what i'm trying to say is some kids are born struggling with anger / aggression etc. Some areborn into a loving family and even then may not cope, but will be caught when they fall. others will be born to famillies where they don't have a chance in hell and what should happen is socsiety will pick up the slack but what does happen is that eople stick their heads in the ground, mutter, and then cry shoot the bastards (I know nobody on here but you can bet thats the attitude amongst a certain type of red top reader) when they fall out teh system a few years later.

'i think if one of my children were taken from me in an act of senseless violence, i am sure i would not be thinking/writing the same as i am here '

I remember that being amde as a key point in ethics class: the reason why we don't get to make those decision ourselves is that it is OK for a aprent of a victim etc to be irrational / scream for revenge; its the jb of others to think clearly and come up with someothing far more productive

I think an EBD boarding school like MB would be more appriopiate for a ten year old then prison. However the cost of these schools is astronomical. I suspect at a place at MB would be at least 100K.

Ofcourse children need boundaries and need to be made to tidy their room. Its often the lack of simple boundaries as well as abuse that has damaged them.

mamadiva, you say ,"But children need to learn that their actions are wrong abused or not, it can't be allowed.

I was one of those kids who was expelled from school, was an alcoholic at 15 and treated people like shit ebcause I thought everyone owed me. I got passed it with a lot of time and effort but also with punishment I realised I was wrong to do this or to do that.

This is what these children do not get they don't get the time and effort invested in them to make them see their actions are wrong."

i fully agree

time, effort and lots of it are needed

you got it, and it worked. without it, perhaps you would not have found your way to a normal life.

no-one has said these children are innocent, or should be excused, just saying there is more to it than they are born evil/ beyond help/ etc

they should not be written off at 10 /11 becasue it is not entirely their fault that this has occurred. although they have clearly made awful, terrible choices, but there is a bigger picture behind it

This is just tragic for all involved. I also feel terribly sad for the children who did this. They probably never stood a chance in life and certainly don't now. I grew up in Sweden and the Bulger-murder happened just after I came to this country. I remember not understanding how the British media/public treated the two boys as evil adults and I still don't think I understand how Britain can treat children as hardened criminals. I think these boys are as much victims as the ones they attacked

There comes a time when compassion and sympathy spills over into enabling and effectively condoning.

That's the balance act that this situation sadly is.

How do we stop these children from growing into:
this

or

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7754313.stm this]]

The later had a criminal history stretching back into his juvenile years.

Because there's these two children who did this, and there's two other children who are literally scarred for life.

Sorry,
this

Exactly peachy - that is precisely why family should be kept out of any decision process re punishment. Justice is blindfolded, not blinded by rage.

Have just 'skimmed' over the thread. Will reiterate what I said yesterday.

I work in a medium secure unit for adolescents. There is structured eucation between 9am- 3pm and intense therapies.

Its not 'butlins' or anything remotely similar (regardless of what The Sun would like you to believe)

Whats the alternative? Fester in a cell? is that really what people want?

oh I am sure the victims would be overjoyed with that..........not

but would you want them in your community, near your children.
I wouldn't

I'd be happy to have them in my community if they had been through some kind of intensive rehabilitation and had got the help they needed. Seriously, I would.

Maybe I am being all wooly and lefty liberal but I would much rather believe in a society which successfuly turns people around at the same time as pinishing them and I do honestly think it is possible and that it happens.

punishing! And even now I am not sure if it should be 2 'Ns'!

Mentoring schemes here lack one big thing.... funding.

I was working as a mentor in a senior school (not with offenders but children who were massively underachieving- the sort that do become susceptible to crime etc laster on).

I really think I did a good job with on particualr girl, managed to get her SPLD accepted and solutions found that would lead to the job she wanted in a non academic route......

then they pulled the funding.

HomesTsart- worked for them also, effective mentering of parents.......

funding in our branch pulled.

I think mentoring is wonderful, I have seen it work so many times. But when funding collapses what do we teach the recipients- that yet another person they trusted just vanished?