Another selfish bastard kills himself - and his two dcs as well, to spite his wife

[Moomin]

How utterly utterly heartrending.

that's just about men, jelly, or did I skim read too fast?

Nab don't be daft, nobody thinks you are evil but I don't think you can blame the mother for his actions, whether or not he is mentally ill (which could extenuate in some courts I am sure) or violent previously.

If she denied him access, and he was a decent bloke, do you still reckon it would be Ok for him to murder his children? And blame her??

Sorry, I just can't understand the sentiment there.

I personally wouldn't kill my children whether or not someone was stopping me seeing them. Myself perhaps, but not them ffs!

Very good article. Nails the lie that men who murder their children as an act of revenge against their wives are somehow mentally ill. They aren't, that's just the excuse they use to try to get away with their despicable actions.

pointy - 'Is it usually the case, then, that men who kill themselves and children are violent and women who do it are mentally ill?' - the Lorna Martin article linked further down seems to suggest exactly that.

I wouldnt like to say how I would feel/what I would do if my children's father tried to prevent/control me seeing them.
I doubt I would kill them. But I don't know how I would feel.

Here:

'Dr Alex Yellowlees, consultant psychiatrist and medical director of the Priory Hospital in Glasgow, said there were distinct differences in the minds of men and women who harm their children. Women, he said, tended to be mentally ill, often suffering from postnatal depression. In contrast, men tended to be struggling to deal with feelings of rage, jealousy, revenge and hatred.'

anyone who kills a child is mentally ill, edam (though they may not be treatable.)

I know lots of selfish bastards. I don't know anyone who would kill a child no matter how much they wanted to hurt the mother.
It's extremely abnormal behaviour and suggests an inability to form relationships properly, surely? and if that's not mental illness, what is?

here's the Times article which mentions previous violence and also the F4J stuff at the end.

if the finger is pointed at this bereaved mother for allegedly not allowing access, then this tragedy just goes to show she was dead right to take that route.
the marriage and breakdown thereof is private, personal and not anyones business.

And as the one left behind you know she will blame herself. Wrongly.

You know what, all I had heard is someone had killed their kids and they were divorcing. I assumed it was due to access being denied. That was all.

I never said she deserved it
I never said she was to blame.

SP... I tend to agree with you here. Whatever labels (or not) we put on it, anyone who kills their own child must be sick. Whether you take the 'blame' route, or the 'they can't have known what they were doing, they couldnt help it', I think we need to have some consistency here.

'She needs to take responsibilty for not allowing him to see his children, if that is what has happened.'

Dangerous line of thought though really, isn't it?

Let's allow every bloke access just in case one of them kills his children because he isn't allowed to see them very much.

Yes, she does need to take responsibilty if she hasn't allowed him access before for not allowing him access.

I am not going to spend all night explaining myself. Other people agreed with me.

I still don't understand how that comment is relevant - surely it is self explanatory? Of course if she has prevented access, she has prevented access - how is that purtaining to what has happened though?

I assumed he had done it as he wasn't allowed access.

Yes someone else did agree with you. I don't know why.
You don't have to explain yourself to me, but I reserve the right to disagree with what I thought you were saying.

And therefore she was indirectly responsible for him doing it?

"'She needs to take responsibilty for not allowing him to see his children, if that is what has happened.'"

That's fucking shameful. How can any parent makes a ststement like this?

never mind any parent how can anyone with an iota of compassion and decency say it!!

But why, if a father has been violent towards his children, should he be given access? (Not wrt this case - don't know the specific scenario here.)

SP - I sort of agree with what you're saying, but couldn't you say the same thing (mentally unstable, difficulty forming relationships) of all men who commit domestic violence? Perhaps what we are saying is that there are an awful lot of men who, by that definition, are mentally ill?

I said what I said before I knew he had been violent.

NAB - I understand your point (I think). It's about fundamentally believing that a father has as much right to raise his children as a mother. Of course, when you look at individual cases, there are some dreadful fathers around who should have controlled access for the safety of the children. And ditto for mothers.
But the starting point needs to be that no parent has any more 'right' to a child than the other.