Page 15 | Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

BongoJim · 2022-07-31T21:06:56+00:00

Follow on from previous full thread https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

Cantanka · 01/08/2022 16:49

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 01/08/2022 16:43

Permission to appeal declined but they can appeal directly is what's being reported.

The Supreme Court will deal with this tomorrow, it’s being reported. That will use up at least until 12 noon I assume. I wonder whether the Supreme Court will give a short further stay so Hollie can go and say goodbye.

I can’t see where they would go after this. The Supreme Court is the highest domestic court, and if they won’t stay it for any further applications (eg to ECHR, which The family had the chance to do and didn’t), then I don’t think there are any avenues left. Hopefully therefore soon Archie can find peace and his family can begin processing what has happened, and grieve properly.

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 01/08/2022 16:52

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 16:45

Sir Andrew McFarlane, presiding over the case at the Court of Appeal, said the Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, which the UN committee based its request on, is an "unincorporated international treaty".

He said: "It is not part of the law of the United Kingdom... and it is not appropriate for this court to apply an unincorporated international treaty into its decision-making process."

"Every day that (Archie) continues to be given life-sustaining treatment is contrary to his best interests and, so, a stay, even for a short time, is against his best interests," he added.

Sir Andrew said Archie's case was "stark" as "his system, his organs and, ultimately, his heart are in the process of closing down".

Sky News

So sad to hear. This is why keeping going even though they have the right to sounds silly. His condition won't change for the better there is no happy ending or him going home.

Cantanka · 01/08/2022 16:53

Just as an FYI: in an appeal there are 2 aspects: firstly permission to appeal, and secondly dealing with the substance of the appeal if permission is given.

The last Court of Appeal judgment was a refusal of permission to appeal to the Court of Appeal. There was no full appeal and substantive decision. As the Court of appeal did not make a substantive decision, the family couldn’t ask for permission to appeal it.

This decision of the Court of Appeal was a substantive decision, not a decision to grant permission (or not). Hence they can ask the Supreme Court for permission to appeal it as of right.

I hope that vaguely makes sense as to why they can go to the Supreme Court this time

Original poster

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 16:56

Cantanka · 01/08/2022 16:53

Just as an FYI: in an appeal there are 2 aspects: firstly permission to appeal, and secondly dealing with the substance of the appeal if permission is given.

The last Court of Appeal judgment was a refusal of permission to appeal to the Court of Appeal. There was no full appeal and substantive decision. As the Court of appeal did not make a substantive decision, the family couldn’t ask for permission to appeal it.

This decision of the Court of Appeal was a substantive decision, not a decision to grant permission (or not). Hence they can ask the Supreme Court for permission to appeal it as of right.

I hope that vaguely makes sense as to why they can go to the Supreme Court this time

From what I'm reading they've been refused permission to go to supreme court?

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Sistanotcista · 01/08/2022 16:57

Quia · 01/08/2022 16:31

I completely agree they should have checked the letter properly, but I don't see how you can deduce that they haven't been acting compassionately just from that alone. Hollie herself keeps saying that the nurses and most of the doctors have been wonderful.

From what I can see, they really have been going above and beyond to keep Archie going. The whole process is really on a knife edge - they may work like Trojans to get the right balance with one system, only for something else to give up or deteriorate and throw all their calculations out. They're giving 24 hour care which involves multiple interventions and dedicating a very expensive ICU room and bed to him. On top of dealing with all the grief from AA and accusations of being murderers and executioners. They could well have been less careful and just allowed him to deteriorate so much that all of this might have been over weeks ago, but they haven't done that.

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@Quia - apologies - I meant that they should have worded their letter more accurately and compassionately. I don't mean that the actual staff caring for Archie haven' been compassionate - I think they've been amazing. Hope this clarifies things!

Cantanka · 01/08/2022 16:58

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 16:56

From what I'm reading they've been refused permission to go to supreme court?

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The court of appeal has refused permission. The Supreme Court can still grant it. You can ask for permission from both the court that made the decision you want to appeal, and the court you want to appeal to. They haven’t asked the Supreme Court yet, but noises are they are going to.

prh47bridge · 01/08/2022 16:58

BreadInCaptivity · 01/08/2022 16:49

I'm utterly bemused by what that actually means....

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In order to appeal to the Supreme Court, you need leave to appeal (i.e. permission to appeal). You must first ask the court that made the decision against which you want to appeal. That court will almost invariably refuse - after all, allowing an appeal at that stage suggests the judges are not confident in their verdict. Assuming leave is refused, the next stage is to ask the Supreme Court for leave to appeal. So tomorrow the parents will be asking the Supreme Court to let them appeal against today's decision.

BreadInCaptivity · 01/08/2022 16:59

Thank you PRH 👍

Cantanka · 01/08/2022 16:59

I hope whoever she listens to gives her firm advice that the Supreme Court are unlikely to give permission and therefore she needs to spend the time with Archie, not in yet another court hearing.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 01/08/2022 17:01

If anyone's interested, it seems the Guardian have also enquired into where the CLC gets its money from: www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/01/christianity-rights-colin-atkinson

prh47bridge · 01/08/2022 17:03

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 16:22

Given the reason for the previous appeal is it not possible the supreme court may dismiss any further appeals because the outcome is still the same?

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Any appeal from this decision will be about whether the request from the UN committee has legal standing in the UK and must be followed. The Supreme Court may decide that there is no prospect of the parents being able to argue this successfully, in which case leave to appeal will not be granted. However, if the Supreme Court thinks the parents may succeed, they will allow an appeal to go ahead. That doesn't mean the appeal will succeed, just that it might.

Original poster

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 17:14

prh47bridge · 01/08/2022 17:03

Any appeal from this decision will be about whether the request from the UN committee has legal standing in the UK and must be followed. The Supreme Court may decide that there is no prospect of the parents being able to argue this successfully, in which case leave to appeal will not be granted. However, if the Supreme Court thinks the parents may succeed, they will allow an appeal to go ahead. That doesn't mean the appeal will succeed, just that it might.

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I'm just not sure any more what the real goal is in this now. A 12 year old child isn't going to suddenly leap up out of bed and go home like the last 3 months didn't even happen, or be taken home in a persistent vegetative state. It only buys more time for vital organs to break down and keep a fallacy alive that he is still in there somewhere just waiting for a bit more time. At this end stage when hope left months ago it does now look more about sticking it to the establishment than because there's going to be a happy ending.

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itsgettingweird · 01/08/2022 17:14

RunningFromInsanity · 01/08/2022 16:37

She’s going to be known as the mother that did a Jeremy Kyle interview instead of spending the last moments with her dying son.

In a year or so time she is going to be so ashamed of her actions. And it’s the fault of those disgusting groups taking advantage of a mothers instinct to keep her child alive at any cost.

That's my fear for Ms Dance too.

That once the adrenaline goes and CLC go o to their next hopeless cause she'll be let alone. Left alone with her thoughts which I think after the time she isn't spending with Archie could end up being dark.

She's fighting for more time with him yet not spending the time she does have with him.

Poor woman is like a puppet on CLCs strings.

KisstheTeapot14 · 01/08/2022 17:25

@loislovesstewie I think I read that you had lost your DH, earlier in the thread. Sounds very similar to what happened to a close friend's DH, very sudden, unexpected, she did CPR until the ambulance arrived but it was clear he'd gone. It's just so shocking. I'm so very sorry.

Original poster

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 17:26

I know it's already been mentioned but organ donation cannot happen now and could have given some comfort and closure knowing he would live on and give life to other people. There's not even that left now.

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loislovesstewie · 01/08/2022 17:31

Thank you to those who have offered sympathy to me in my loss. I didn't comment to garner that , but really just to say that I have some sympathy for Archie's family, but we all need to know when to let go and say 'enough'.

BreadInCaptivity · 01/08/2022 17:38

I'm just not sure any more what the real goal is in this now. A 12 year old child isn't going to suddenly leap up out of bed and go home like the last 3 months didn't even happen, or be taken home in a persistent vegetative state. It only buys more time for vital organs to break down and keep a fallacy alive that he is still in there somewhere just waiting for a bit more time. At this end stage when hope left months ago it does now look more about sticking it to the establishment than because there's going to be a happy ending.

As I've said in a pp, I think the goal for Hollie has been unclear for some time now as she has been inconsistent in what's she's said to the Court vs what she's said on social media, press statements and interviews.

Based on what's been said in Court, she does understand Archie will not recover but is fighting for his right to die as is God's Will, which she interprets as his body failing and not the withdrawal of treatment. Other people may suggest God's Will is being thwarted by continuing treatment but ultimately people have the right to hold either position.

Obviously elsewhere she's made numerous claims that suggest Archie simply needs more time to recover, is not brain stem dead and shows signs of response (such as gripping her hand, opening his eyes and trying to breathe).

It's impossible to reconcile these very different narratives.

Ultimately only Hollie knows what's driving her at this point but I hope that in the years to come, she doesn't regret the choices she's made, regardless of why she did so.

BangingOn · 01/08/2022 17:42

I can only imagine that Holly is fighting because the alternative is to be seen to give up. She’s used those words time and time again, as have that damned army, and she’s effectively backed herself into a place where she feels she has no alternative but to keep fighting, as that’s what a ‘good mother’ would do.

BobDear · 01/08/2022 17:43

I think that what Hollie Dance is doing is no different to any kind of irrational behaviour that is a grief response. When I have lost people close to me, I have done and said things that are nonsensical and desperate - but because it's in the privacy of my home, my family have been able to protect me from stares and gently nudge me back on to the right path.

The difference in this case is that is in stuck in an in-between world with the wrong people whispering in her ear, giving her false hope and a misguided quest to cling on to. She has lost all sense of reality and can't stop now because this is all that is keeping her upright. I agree that she will come to regret the time she has spent petitioning and convincing herself of a fantasy in the full glare of the media, instead of being with her boy, but i won't judge her for it. I will however judge the people around her who should have been the ones guiding her towards reality.

Poor woman

LetsGoFlyAKiteee · 01/08/2022 17:45

BangingOn · 01/08/2022 17:42

I can only imagine that Holly is fighting because the alternative is to be seen to give up. She’s used those words time and time again, as have that damned army, and she’s effectively backed herself into a place where she feels she has no alternative but to keep fighting, as that’s what a ‘good mother’ would do.

I think from sounds that's why she wants him to pass by himself. Mainly because of beliefs and also that she did what she could and didn't lose against the system or anything he just went naturally. Whereas turning off the machines is taking away that natural passing. Or as much as it can be seem as natural and admitting defeat

Quia · 01/08/2022 17:48

Eeksteek · 01/08/2022 14:28

I don’t think that’s it. The courts are totally and rightly focused on keeping this about Archie’s best interests. Firstly because it’s the right thing to do, and secondly to prevent consequences like someone being ‘legally dead’ but medically alive, organ donation issues from someone still alive in some definitions but not others, or the CLC getting a foot in the door precedent with their agenda about a beating heart (which is plainly going be a misogynistic anti abortion cause)

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Yes, that is what the current decision is all about. However, Judge Arbuthnot initially went the other way and the Court of Appeal set her decision aside, partly because they were not going to override the medical definition of death.

Unforgettablefire · 01/08/2022 17:50

Just wondering...how do they know the brain stem is dropping into the spine? "Coning" do they not need an mri for that? Also, if that is the case then surely there is no brain stem to speak of?

BreadInCaptivity · 01/08/2022 17:52

BobDear · 01/08/2022 17:43

I think that what Hollie Dance is doing is no different to any kind of irrational behaviour that is a grief response. When I have lost people close to me, I have done and said things that are nonsensical and desperate - but because it's in the privacy of my home, my family have been able to protect me from stares and gently nudge me back on to the right path.

The difference in this case is that is in stuck in an in-between world with the wrong people whispering in her ear, giving her false hope and a misguided quest to cling on to. She has lost all sense of reality and can't stop now because this is all that is keeping her upright. I agree that she will come to regret the time she has spent petitioning and convincing herself of a fantasy in the full glare of the media, instead of being with her boy, but i won't judge her for it. I will however judge the people around her who should have been the ones guiding her towards reality.

Poor woman

I don't judge her at all for pursuing her case through the courts - that's her legal right.

I'm struggling however not to judge her for the comments and inflammatory rhetoric she's using against the hospital (and failing if I'm honest).

Grief does not absolve you of any moral responsibility or poor decision making, especially when it's purpose is designed to wound others.

Original poster

BongoJim · 01/08/2022 18:01

Unforgettablefire · 01/08/2022 17:50

Just wondering...how do they know the brain stem is dropping into the spine? "Coning" do they not need an mri for that? Also, if that is the case then surely there is no brain stem to speak of?

I believe they did do an MRI. Which she claimed was someone else's scans.

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MrsLargeEmbodied · 01/08/2022 18:04

there was an mri scan@Unforgettablefire