Archie Battersbee - Thread 3

[BongoJim]

Follow on from previous full thread

www.mumsnet.com/talk/in_the_news/4596573-archie-battersebee-case-thread-2?page=1

@BongoJim thank you. Sorry yes that's right I'm getting that mixed up with the brain stem test.

@BreadInCaptivity I'm not sure.... Do I think she is behaving 'badly' and being obtuse and deliberately inflammatory? Yes

Do I think she is angry with the wrong people? Yes

Do I think she is coming across as a 'bit stupid'. Sadly, yes

Do I think she will regret how she has spent these past few weeks? Probably.

But...

We love to praise people for being dignified in the face of unimaginable pain/grief/horror - but it's just not within everyone's gift.

Not everyone is blessed with emotional intelligence/capacity for 'bearing up' and 'being brave'. She is at her weakest moment and she has the wrong people egging her on because they love a 'campaign' and all the attention it brings.

Amazingly, there have been cases of people recovering from coning! I'd assumed that it would = automatic death. Seemingly not!

Clearly it's not going to happen here thoigh, especially since some of his brain stem has died and fallen off, no blood flow, 4 months etc.

If he could have been saved, he would have been.

He needs to be let go now.

I hope so, that would be awful.

Legal avenues of appeal are crucial in a democracy and a civilised country but how things have managed to get this far needs to be analysed so this cannot happen to another person, child or adult.

It's very difficult to work out what could be done differently, though. After the Evans and Gard cases I understand there was a lot of discussion about procedures in hospitals to try to avoid court proceedings being necessary at all, and I'm sure any changes have been implemented, but ultimately there is no way to ensure that parents will always agree with hospitals - particularly with organisations like CLC around. Once court becomes necessary, there can't be any compromise in terms of things like appeal rights. The courts are probably more lenient with giving leave to appeal in this sort of case, and as time goes on they are likely to be less so because all the arguments are being closed off, but that may be the best we can hope for.

My understanding is she refused to allow a brain stem test.

Yes exactly. It's the hardest thing to do for anyone and in this case it's been months now not just days or weeks.
I'm sorry for your loss 💐

@BongoJim yes I remember now the refusal to accept the brain stem test and the mri that supposedly had the wrong amount of teeth.
Good job I'm not a doctor.

I do get tired of the argument that is constantly put forward that it is inherently wrong for the courts to get involved in parents' decisions about their children, as if no parent ever makes a bad decision for their child. Surely it doesn't take more than a few seconds' thought to realise that cannot be true.

The admin on there has posted on how he is comfortable,stable,putting on weight and is in no pain.

That's also probably why the parents having a hard time accepting. No one around them or least from sounds is saying otherwise

Agree.

And I think once court hearings start it almost then becomes almost all so consuming because to stop when there are avenues available would seem like giving up.

I think the fundamental issue here will be what happened before this made the media (before NHS went to court) rather than what's happening now.

And for that all we have is Ms Dance version of events and her inflammatory rhetoric born out of her understandable grief mixed with her innate personality.

Weight gain can be fluids building up in his body , no one knows if he is in pain and being stable is up to the doctors to determine based on his blood results, scans, oxygen etc.

What is the alternative to all these appeals? I mean imagine if we had this every time there was a child on life support.

Should say 3 Consultants in agreement be enough to switch off the machines with no court involvement at all?

Mbp? 🤔

It's right and proper to have an appeal system you can exhaust but there has to be a cut off point, otherwise it would never end. I think supreme court in this case is that cut off point. Based on available evidence of his condition I'd expect at the very most tomorrow might get another stay until Wednesday but that will be it. There's nowhere else to go now.

Think it was mentioned it court again also that he is unstable and its a matter of time...be surprised if tomorrow goes anywhere the evidence is all against them.

MBP is a bit of a stretch. Comes across more as refusing to accept the prognosis, lashing out at anyone who tells her anything she doesn't want to hear and someone who doesn't like to be told no.

I'm beginning to think that maybe we give doctors the right to conduct brain stem tests when they feel it's the right time.

These last few months, the court hearings etc, might all have been avoided if doctors had been able to do the test when they first suggested.

Are you kidding?

Weve just had coning described on the thread again and you want to suggest his poor mother has munchausens? What do you think she’s fabricating?

She’s being utterly exploited by ‘The Patriachy’ for their own misogynistic ends. I don’t think she has the slightest idea what she’s fighting for, only against, now. It seems she’s that sort of person, and heartbreakingly vulnerable.

This happens every day, all over the country. Children (and adults) die of horrific diseases, accidents and violence and the advice of the medical team is largely accepted by their families (because it’s right). I’ve no idea what percentage of ICU patients die, but it’s high (I should think overwhelming if you don’t include people who are there for short periods post op). I don’t know what percentage of cases end up in a ‘best interests’ court case, but it’s tiny. I bet it’s something 1 in ten thousand, or even less. It’s not at all normal to wake up and get back to normal. (Soaps have a lot to answer for here, I suspect.)

But it’s a necessary process. Ordinary people should have redress. No profession is infallible. It’s a flagship of a justice system and a civilised society that this can happen once in a while, albeit funded by an extremely dubious body with a nefarious agenda. And like any evil (and this level of exploitation is evil, in my opinion. HD has her faults, but she’s being exploited by experts) you just have to keep fighting fair, over and over, don’t you?

Did the JK interview go ahead?

I would assume that he's been told to go easy given his past history and the fact that this is a mother whose child may only have hours to live. But I do wish one of the interviewers would gently challenge her on the contradiction between what she tells the courts and what she tells interviewers and AA.

There is none. No one can consent on behalf of another person. No one, ever, not even a child. You have to act in the in a person’s best interest. So if a person’s medical interests now and their religious interest or previous decisions or beliefs are at odds and a resolution can’t be reached, you have to get a court order. A medical professional couldn’t know anything about the person previously, no matter how many you brought in, even if it were possible to be abuse-proof.

It’s very rare. But there’s nothing else for it, really.

The issue here is that it is being funded and fuelled by a religious group with an ulterior motive. And you can’t stop that, either. A parent is entitled to support by an organisation. Isolating them from ‘the wrong’ support would be just a cult-style brainwashing process by the other side.

don't think it's been on yet - news desk 19.00-20.00 so I think it's 20.00 ?