To comment that anyone wanting to find more about Zelensky - offshore dealings

[SandyStrawToad]

I'm not a bot.

Was just trying to find out a bit more about the situation, build-up of current events beyond the surface information.

Found a lot of information from late last year (leaked Pandora Papers) - of course like all news it's

but he isn't some naïve young actor with a cute architect wife who accidentally fell into politics whilst playing Paddington?

www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

globalhappenings.com/opinion/15391.html

eutoday.net/news/politics/2021/ukraine-82.3-consider-zelenskys-involvement-in-offshore-activities-unacceptable-poll-shows

Got my flameproof suit on but I just think in terms of information (especially as some Mumsnetters are probably using this forum as a primary source of information) it's useful to try to have a complete picture if you're thinking about how to engage with a situation that you're learning about.

Everyone comes into a situation from a different angle - I'm personally fairly uneasy with backing policies that put myself and people on the breadline at risk, by a multi-millionaire with substantial assets abroad with links to a billionaire who is already sanctioned by the EU and the US (awaits flaming).

(am I the only one who is hunting down a source of "unbiased news" regularly?)

I'm sure the regular media is aware of this and when it suits the narrative/story arc they'll bring it up again.

Interesting that a common theme of the OP's posts is how we should shut up - we can 'quietly' condemn Putin and help Ukrainian refugees but we mustn't talk about it. We'll only reveal our inferior thinking after all in comparison to the OP's greatly nuanced interpretation of the invasion! Meanwhile they are also extremely keen to impress how utterly insignificant Mumsnet is and how no one would possibly care what's said on such a 'random' website full of silly mums obsessed with parking after all (funny how we get such huge waves of bots intent on sowing disinformation on major issues then when we matter so very little politically, right?).

I realise the Brexit strategy of don't trust the experts, ignore mainstream media, do your own 'research', fling around the phrase 'critical thinking' over and over was very successful but it's pretty recognisable now and its effectiveness gets diluted every time it's wheeled out again and again to sow division and obscure the direction of blame and accountability.

@pucelleauxblanchesmains

It's an open forum, you can post what you like, I can post what I like?
People can read or agree or disagree. I'm not trying to win or advance an agenda here and I haven't resorted to personal attacks.

Overall, I do believe the quality of news and information is incredibly poor and Euro-centric and biased and often fits sensationalist/reactionary agendas IMO.

I've put some links up to sources like Reuters, or the BBC or the Times of Israel as I myself find them helpful to build a bigger picture.

If people are considering how to engage with current affairs or if to engage at all, more information from varied international sources is always good.

I wouldn't delude myself people are daft so they'd take anyone's view on a random internet forum as gospel truth - yours or mine!

They say if you want to find out what’s happening in your own country, read your neighbouring country’s newspapers.

Right, so Putin has invaded Ukraine, killing civilians including children, bombing key infrastructure and attacking nuclear facilities. He has, at the same time, tanked the economy of his own country, throwing his own citizens into hardship. Stopping all of this is in his power. All of it.

And yet the issue you’ve chosen to focus on is whether Zelensky is getting informed consent from (adult) foreign fighters who are volunteering their service?

Why is that?

I guess for me it's more about "people who aren't 100% honest about their motivations"

The irony.😅

Why does it matter who is the President of the country is when that country is currently being invaded by Russia? Why does it matter who the President is when Ukrainian civilians are being bombed by Russia? When Russia is bombing civilians who have been forced to flee their homes?

If someone was shelling U.K. civilians would you be asking questions about Boris Johnson’s financial dealings?

@noblegiraffe

can start your own thread on Putin feel free.

Longer term actions on Ukraine's/Zelensky's (and indeed the rest of the world/EU/NATO) part as well as Russia have led to this situation.

These actions have very little visibility in the current news cycle.

Wars don't happen in a complete vacuum, with Russkies and black and brown people deciding to randomly emerge out of the Axis Of Evil full of hatred, determined to cause mayhem on decent civilised people.

A lot of what Zelensky is openly saying seems now to be geared to setting up world escalation (no-fly zone, volunteers who would compromise their own countries diplomatic neutrality) and getting more and more people involved and contributing resources and putting their own lives and futures at risk.

Including those of the Ukrainians.

I've noticed I've not heard a single interview or viewpoint broadcast with any Ukrainians who just want a ceasefire.

So is that because "Ukrainians wanting a ceasefire ASAP" don't exist or that there's an agenda to push here?

Are all the Ukrainians genuinely and enthusiastically "up for a prolonged fight/revenge" like Zelensky is saying?

I picked up on the foreign fighters as I think that's interesting in terms of manpower argument.

if there's enough Ukrainian people involved, and everyone is sending them arms, and even teenagers are arming themselves with everything and keen to continue fighting, then why is there a "shortage"?

All men of fighting age plus 60000 from abroad plus all the women too is a lot.

@SandyStrawToad You're the only one talking about "black and brown people" (at least you didn't call them black and brown bodies, small mercies).
Nobody said wars happen in a vacuum, but sometimes things really aren't the west's fault - probably disappointing to hear but there you are. If you want to insist that Ukraine provoked Putin into this then go ahead but the rest of us have the right to find that distasteful. And of course Putin was happy to bomb "brown people" in Syria and Muslims in Chechnya but I suppose that doesn't suit the narrative.

@Ncwinc

I'd100% be mindful of Johnson's motivations if he was insisting/demanding/repeating I "make sacrifices and fight on to avenge everyone for the greater good", yes. Wouldn't you?

So I'd want to unpick what his game was and where he was coming from

or if in the long term, he'd give a shit if I and my loved ones ended up broke and injured with PTSD and he was chilling in Barbados with his photogenic wife.

if there's enough Ukrainian people involved, and everyone is sending them arms, and even teenagers are arming themselves with everything and keen to continue fighting, then why is there a "shortage"?

Russia: 146,039,580
Ukraine: 43,292,397

According to Worldometer, that's more than 100 Million more Russians than there are Ukranians

Sure you would. You’d be ignoring the bombing of a children’s hospital and the fact that Russia was stopping civilians fleeing by shelling the ‘safe evacuation’ corridor they’ve agreed to and focusing on tax returns.

@Igneococcus

Entire Russian population isn't going in - compare Russian army size vs the size of the whole Ukrainian population who Zelensky is "claiming" are all up in arms and willing to fight (and everything you see in the media suggests this).

This has to be one of the most tasteless threads that I've seen for a long time. I suspect that it won't age well either.

"Russia's military, at 900,000 active duty troops and two million reservists, is eight times the size of Ukraine's."

First google result, you can look for another one if you like, but that is almost 3 million people Putin could in theory throw at the Ukraine, trained military personel not someone who has never before used a gun. Can you really not see how unfair and unbalanced this fight is?

Eh? What do you mean that 'something doesn't add up' that Ukraine are pleading for help?

Ukraine is outgunned and outmanned at every turn! Of course they'll take soldiers from anywhere willing to help. How can you criticise them asking for all the help they can get when a bigger neighbour wants to wipe them off the map (again)?

Russia has almost 900,000 active military personnel to draw on in its war of aggression, versus Ukraine's standing military of around 200,000. Ukraine has vastly fewer attacking aircraft — 146 versus Russia's 1,328 — and helicopters; just 42 versus 478.

The war in Ukraine was started by Putin in 2014. The Ukrainians are not fighting to avenge, they are fighting because they have been invaded.

Putin sent his family out of Russia, with well filled coffers, and got his botox done before invading. The deaths, PTSD and impoverishment of Russia and Ukraine is on him @SandyStrawToad.

"I guess for me it's more about "people who aren't 100% honest about their motivations"

Same here. You're a Russian sympathiser pretending not to be. Is have more respect for you if you were just honest about it tbh.

www.persuasion.community/p/putins-unholy-alliance?s=r
Putin's Unholy Alliance
Those on the extremes of Western politics are enchanted by the Russian president's worldview

If they did not have bigger targets, the Ukrainian democratic forces might turn on their enemies in the extremes of Western politics. Even as Ukraine’s heroism astonishes and inspires the world, it remains a source of shame that powerful factions on the left and right would undermine their cause.

And

The horseshoe theory that far left and right end up meeting cannot explain the vast differences in economic and social policy between the two sides. But the legacy of communist totalitarianism ensures that the far left is as opposed to liberal democracy as the far right.

And

On both sides, it is a measure of the savagery of the Russian assault that it has in recent days all but silenced the liars and insinuators, the whatabouters and the hired propagandists. But I would not count on them staying silent for long. The West’s rediscovery of its resolve will lead to economic pain as sanctions send fuel and food prices rising. As the pain grows, his fellow travelers will be back arguing that we should appease Putin rather than pay the cost of standing up to him.

“On an occasion of this kind it becomes more than a moral duty to speak one’s mind,” says Oscar Wilde in The Importance of Being Earnest. “It becomes a pleasure.” When the time comes, taking on the enormous hypocrisies of nationalists who support the destruction of nations, and anti-imperialists who cannot make a stand against the revival of the Tsarist empire, will be exactly that.

But her emails...
But his off shore back account...

You can't fault Ukraine for appealing for mercenaries in the circs. Especially if all they've been getting is bloody Scottish grandads.

If anyone wants some more insight on this situation (beyond speculations of Putin having lost his mind) this video by American political scientist at U of Chicago, John Mearsheimer, is very illuminating. It dates back to 2015, but he more or less predicted this crisis, and explains it was an inevitable outcome of any attempt to extend NATO to the East. It is loooooooong but worth your time.

(PS - not saying it absolves Putin. It doesn't. He will pay for these war crimes. There's no excuse to just invade another country. But it does offer some context beyond "unprovoked attack by a madman" and places some blame squarely on the West as well)

@Skiptheheartsandflowers

Ok, let's work out what your point is. Some questions for you.

Considerable sacrifices are being requested from other nations (and especially from his own countrymen) from someone I know very little about (and admit so).

This seems to imply that he's asking for unreasonable sacrifices from the Ukrainians. In what way? Defending their country? Do you think he should be surrendering their nation to Russia? Do you think they would prefer that?

What are the sacrifices you think he's asking of you? You mentioned 'the bread line' so presumably financial. Do you think it's unreasonable that your heating bills will go up because Ukraine is resisting invasion? Do you think Zelensky should subsidise your bills from his offshore accounts? And do you think that Putin controlling all of Russia AND Ukraine's gas will be better for you in the long run?

OP, I was interested in your response to my middle of the night questions. I've quoted them again here as you probably missed them.

Some of these others may be poor, or desperate, or emotionally vulnerable, or not have money or contacts, or be caught up in the idea of being a heroic soldier fighting for peace and democracy.

Are you concerned about Putin taking advantage of people like this in the actions he has chosen to take? Rather a double standard to find it unacceptable on the basis of Zelensky's actions but say nothing about Putin.

Also, can you really not understand why Russia isn't asking for volunteers in the way Ukraine is? Because you're either being disingenuous, or you are in severe need of Google Maps and some basis numbers regarding each country, which is not what I'd expect from someone with your nuanced views.

[quote SandyStrawToad]**@Igneococcus

Not sure how relevant that is, are you arguing Putin's expansionist aims are similar to those of Hitler and it will be "everyone else next"?

Personally I think that's unlikely - we're in NATO.

But happy to read if you have some information, and want to make a reasoned argument on that as I'm learning more about this situation.[/quote]
Thats clearly not what @Igneococcus was saying. Her point was to question why you are attacking the victim rather than the aggressor

I want to go because the handsome cool man on the TV is saying I'm fighting for peace and freedom" is something that arguably needs to be looked at in more detail.

So just to confirm @SandyStrawToad - you are concerned that noone is looking into this in detail so you have heroically stepped up to take this on?