To comment that anyone wanting to find more about Zelensky - offshore dealings

[SandyStrawToad]

I'm not a bot.

Was just trying to find out a bit more about the situation, build-up of current events beyond the surface information.

Found a lot of information from late last year (leaked Pandora Papers) - of course like all news it's

but he isn't some naïve young actor with a cute architect wife who accidentally fell into politics whilst playing Paddington?

www.theguardian.com/news/2021/oct/03/revealed-anti-oligarch-ukrainian-president-offshore-connections-volodymyr-zelenskiy

www.occrp.org/en/the-pandora-papers/pandora-papers-reveal-offshore-holdings-of-ukrainian-president-and-his-inner-circle

globalhappenings.com/opinion/15391.html

eutoday.net/news/politics/2021/ukraine-82.3-consider-zelenskys-involvement-in-offshore-activities-unacceptable-poll-shows

Got my flameproof suit on but I just think in terms of information (especially as some Mumsnetters are probably using this forum as a primary source of information) it's useful to try to have a complete picture if you're thinking about how to engage with a situation that you're learning about.

Everyone comes into a situation from a different angle - I'm personally fairly uneasy with backing policies that put myself and people on the breadline at risk, by a multi-millionaire with substantial assets abroad with links to a billionaire who is already sanctioned by the EU and the US (awaits flaming).

(am I the only one who is hunting down a source of "unbiased news" regularly?)

I'm sure the regular media is aware of this and when it suits the narrative/story arc they'll bring it up again.

Ah, nonsense. I deplore Channel 4, the BBC, every dreadful English paper equally, hence my post asking for other news sources people using. Then I gave an example of a story that hasn't to my knowledge been reported here, but is being reported in Asia and the US. I mean, if you agree with Lithuania withdrawing vaccines from Bangladesh, just say so.

The BBC really is utter shit, though. But identical to SkyNews and C4, I certainly couldn't tell the reports apart.

@ABitBesotted

*It also hasn’t been reported in other UK media - I’ve quickly checked The Telegraph, The Times, The Express, the Daily Mail, the Sun and the Mirror this morning, and can’t see it on any of their websites.

So it’s not just the BBC not reporting it, as you imply.*

Nope, not my implication. My point is you are never going to learn much if you follow and trust only the UK media.

I think it's flat out evil what Lithuania have done. We have many Bangladeshis here so why isn't this reported?

So why didn’t you say it’s not being reported by all UK media, instead of only mentioning the BBC in your original post? That suggests you have an anti-BBC bias, meaning I felt sceptical of your comments and went online to check the newspapers as well. But a lot of people probably wouldn’t do that, and accept your ‘spin’ that the BBC can’t be trusted/ is biased.

BTW, I do agree that we shouldn’t just rely on UK media, and I am surprised that the Lithuanian government’s decision is not being reported in any of the UK papers or on the BBC. I was already aware of it as I’d seen the Newsweek article on Twitter.

@spacehardware

"the OP was that we shouldn't fall for the Star Wars-esque good vs evil narrative, as that isn't how real life works. That's what I understood by "nuance"."

Putin seized Crimea in 2014; his agenda is expansionist and aggressive and basically he wants the USSR back

Do not be fooled into thinking he has any intention of stopping with Ukraine. NATO will ultimately either have to engage with Russia militarily, or accept that the principles underlying nato as now bullshit, and will not engage no matter what he does.

How does anyone know with any certainty "..Putin has no intention of stopping with Ukraine"? "He wants the USSR back?" How do you know this?

Russia has not stated any intentions to push beyond Ukraine. Putin has certainly not laid out his plans in the town hall, has he?

All we have to go on is the opinions and analyses of all the experts, so-called gurus and Kremlin watchers.

Life-altering events like Brexit were won on the back of "Don't trust the experts". What has changed now?

Disclaimer: Putin will do damn well whatever he pleases. Yes he didn't say anything but I will really not be surprised if he tramples all over Georgia or Moldova.

But that is no reason to jump up and down on threads like these parroting back some scare-mongering nonsense.

What is being actually said. Versus what is being interpreted by the talking heads on our TV screens. Two different things altogether.

"Anyone who doesn't regret the passing of the Soviet Union has no heart. Anyone who wants it restored has no brains."- Putin

Also here is a Spectator article: www.spectator.co.uk/article/no-putin-isn-t-trying-to-bring-the-soviet-union-back

Yes another Western commentator but at least you can see a different viewpoint. That is nuance.

And before people jump on me: yes the invasion is unlawful. Yes the loss of life horrific. These are givens. I shouldn't have to say this.

No politicians are squeaky clean. I'm not surprised. However, I give him credit for sticking it out, staying in the city and keeping up the fight talk. Imagine what would happen if he was killed. The people appreciate what he is doing for their morale. Beyond that, what matters more right now?

It just annoys me the same way that it annoys me when rich Tory PM's suggest we show solidarity and make sacrifices?

///
This must be one if the daftest comparisons I've ever read. You do realise this man and his family could be murdered any day, don't you?

@frankie001

“I’m not a bot” is exactly what a bot would say.

Quite ... like that other chestnut "I'm not a racist but ..."

@triggery

I've been thinking similar today OP. Maybe I'm just cynical (as I'm sure loads of people are after two years of covid media) but after spending the day reading up on more balanced / nuanced arguments I'm pretty sure there is a lot more to this than we are being told and it's not half as black and white as the propaganda machines on either side are making it out to be.

Yup, that old nuanced move of invading a neighbouring country, bombing humanitarian corridor and taking over Chernobyl. Clearly some good but complex reasons for this, I'm sure.

Re: sacrifices from other nations, for example the immediate effect of the sanctions on other states. Which is fairly logical. Imagine a lot of people have lost their jobs and will continue to do so.

www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/3/7/far-from-putins-russia-tajikistans-people-feel-sanctions-pain

Agree with the corruption stats - Ukraine is ranked were very visible before the recent events

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

Well before recent events, the Presidents wife made about $5-600000 on a flat purchased from a tycoon, per capita income for average Ukrainian is about $2100. Reuters source.

www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/ukraine/annual-household-income-per-capita

www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-election-zelenskiy-property-e-idUSKCN1S7373

There's also the LSE fellow who had nationalised a bank against the economic interests of one of Zelensky's close friends.

Her house was set on fire and she got run over in London, and gave interviews on this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49732471

www.cnbc.com/2019/09/20/privatbank-ukraines-president-zelensky-and-the-oligarch-kolomoisky.html

Also,

Why is Zelensky asking other states to send volunteers when the "dominant media narrative" and every interview I've seen suggests every plucky Ukrainian is available and 100% fighting for their country including every man between the ages 18-60.

Which I assume would mean enough numbers.

Senegal have complained, as it's illegal in their country.

www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-senegal-idAFL5N2V659C

www.thecable.ng/senegal-stops-ukraine-from-recruiting-its-citizens-to-fight-russia

Something doesn't add up.

I slightly resonated with one of the comments where it said that Zelensky maybe is just "in over his head" with the narrative - maybe he's not 100% bad (no-one is and assume he's had to work with the existing corrupt structure) but rather than making the best decisions for the people, getting a bit carried away with the hero image?

And the media is encouraging him.

Appreciate some of the more thoughtful posts/links/info here - thank you and I actually learned a few things!

lot of cut and paste links there.

@SandyStrawToad

Re: sacrifices from other nations, for example the immediate effect of the sanctions on other states. Which is fairly logical. Imagine a lot of people have lost their jobs and will continue to do so.

www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/3/7/far-from-putins-russia-tajikistans-people-feel-sanctions-pain

Agree with the corruption stats - Ukraine is ranked were very visible before the recent events

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

Well before recent events, the Presidents wife made about $5-600000 on a flat purchased from a tycoon, per capita income for average Ukrainian is about $2100. Reuters source.

www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/ukraine/annual-household-income-per-capita

www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-election-zelenskiy-property-e-idUSKCN1S7373

There's also the LSE fellow who had nationalised a bank against the economic interests of one of Zelensky's close friends.

Her house was set on fire and she got run over in London, and gave interviews on this.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49732471

www.cnbc.com/2019/09/20/privatbank-ukraines-president-zelensky-and-the-oligarch-kolomoisky.html

Also,

Why is Zelensky asking other states to send volunteers when the "dominant media narrative" and every interview I've seen suggests every plucky Ukrainian is available and 100% fighting for their country including every man between the ages 18-60.

Which I assume would mean enough numbers.

Senegal have complained, as it's illegal in their country.

www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-senegal-idAFL5N2V659C

www.thecable.ng/senegal-stops-ukraine-from-recruiting-its-citizens-to-fight-russia

Something doesn't add up.

I slightly resonated with one of the comments where it said that Zelensky maybe is just "in over his head" with the narrative - maybe he's not 100% bad (no-one is and assume he's had to work with the existing corrupt structure) but rather than making the best decisions for the people, getting a bit carried away with the hero image?

And the media is encouraging him.

Appreciate some of the more thoughtful posts/links/info here - thank you and I actually learned a few things!

@SandyStrawToad Is Zelensky actually, personally, asking for volunteers to fight, as in volunteers from other countries, not Ukrainians living abroad? A genuine question as I haven’t been following his statements in detail, and those two links you posted refer to the Ukrainian ambassador to Senegal and a request posted on the embassy’s Facebook page.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/27/ukraine-appeals-for-foreign-volunteers-to-join-fight-against-russia

www.dw.com/en/ukraines-bid-to-recruit-fighters-from-africa-sparks-uproar/a-61049323

www.benarnews.org/english/news/thai/fight-volunteers-03082022151302.html

Clearly motivated people around the globe.

Obviously it's their own personal journey/decision, but I don't know whether or not I'd recommend some young person travels to fight in Ukraine/makes sacrifices and relies on being remunerated/getting decent treatment and managing to cope with the aftermath later on including implications for their own country.

(look at the mixed messages from the British government!)

Which I assume would mean enough numbers.

You know Ukraine are up against the Russian army, right?

Do you think Ukraine v Russia is a fair fight?

Do you think it’s ridiculous to ask for back-up?

Russia, which supposedly asked for Syrian fighters trained in urban combat, reported in the Independent among other news sources.

And tried to rope in Belarus too.

Yep, them too

@noblegiraffe

Agree people can ask for what they like from whoever they like whenever they like according to their own interests! (send me lunch someone please).

If requests involve encouraging young people (possibly from poorer countries encouraged by quick money) to take fairly risky decisions then yes I do think informed consent is important.

Particularly significant/poignant for people in a post-colonial age

Thinking about Algeria or Afghanistan here - "help us out, sign up, we'll give you a Western standard of living, it's all about the democracy....

then we leave you totally in the shit is a familiar pattern.

"I want to go because the handsome cool man on the TV is saying I'm fighting for peace and freedom" is something that arguably needs to be looked at in more detail.

Including questioning why if every narrative is how Ukraine is 100% united, Ukrainians flying back and rallying behind Zelensky and women fighting and Russians don't even want to be there...why aren't there enough Ukrainians?

It might not be about numbers - it could be Zelensky wanting a PR objective with his "international brigade". Which he is entitled to do.

(And I'd be delighted if they all came out the other end 100% fine and happy and met lovely Ukrainian friends and didn't regret their decisions).

But also others are entitled to want to disentangle motivations (not that anyone cares about ramblings on a parenting forum tbf).

Why are you focusing on the victims rather than the clear agressor in this war? In 1939, would you have tried to discredit the Polish government and ignored Hitler?

@Igneococcus Yes, they would.

@Igneococcus

Not sure how relevant that is, are you arguing Putin's expansionist aims are similar to those of Hitler and it will be "everyone else next"?

Personally I think that's unlikely - we're in NATO.

But happy to read if you have some information, and want to make a reasoned argument on that as I'm learning more about this situation.

’If requests involve encouraging young people (possibly from poorer countries encouraged by quick money) to take fairly risky decisions then yes I do think informed consent is important.’

Are you thinking of Russia recruiting Syrians?

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/07/russia-trying-to-recruit-syrians-to-fight-in-ukraine-says-pentagon

Putin attacked a neighbour state without provocation, this is exactly what Hitler did with Poland, and yes many people, including my colleages in Estonia, think that he will not stop there, though seeing how badly it is going for him at the moment might make him think twice about it.
But my question stands: why are you trying to discredit Zelensky while ignoring all the faults of Putin (whose palace is probably many times the size of Zelensky's Italian villa) who is the agressor here? Are there other scenarios where you side with the bully?

@Ncwinc

not pro-Russian so not sure what your point is.

I guess for me it's more about "people who aren't 100% honest about their motivations" vs "everyone else who gets screwed over by jingoism and the dominant narrative".

Millions of pounds have gone through Zelensky's production companies from his billionaire backer (hardly a naïve underdog comedian performing in pubs mocking The Establishment)!).

He's openly and emotionally choosing to request a lot of help/intervention/sacrifices from others (which Putin isn't).

As a pp said, to the point where poor countries like Bangladesh are being significantly "punished" for not backing him and Ukraine.

Some of these others may be poor, or desperate, or emotionally vulnerable, or not have money or contacts, or be caught up in the idea of being a heroic soldier fighting for peace and democracy.

The thing is, if you look at the shape Nazi propaganda often took I 100% believe people would have swallowed it. They often took bad things Britain had very definitely done in order to equivocate on what they were doing - they even made propaganda films about the Irish struggle for freedom. And I do think that if Mumsnet had existed back then we would be getting a lot of "well I did hear some nasty rumours about what they were doing to the Jews but AIBU to look up some different sources and Churchill isn't squeaky clean and why should anyone die for Danzig".
research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/raub.htm

No, I do not think Putin is Hitler, thank God. I think he is a nationalist authoritarian who is happy to flatten cities and poison people in pursuit of his goals, which is all bad enough. But my point is that "what about what about what about" and the endless search for nuance can take you down some dark and twisted paths.