MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

[Bunglie]

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

Jampot, yes you are correct in your 'gleaning'

I can not give too many details because of a 'gaggng order', but I will try and tell you in a 'nutshell', as I am trying not to post to much info about myself because I have been 'warned' not to.

My dd had a condition, I was blamed for causing it and I did not. However the police decided after I had my children removed from my care that the would prosecute me. You have probably read the details of that. Once I had been 'cleared' by the criminal court I then had to go through a civil court to get my children back. I lost in the civil court because Prof. Meadows, who never met me, spoke to me or any doctor who knew me, or even saw any of my medical notes said I had MSbP. The person that he did speak to has recently told me that she thinks I was guilty and that I only got off on a technicality...it is this which has caused me so much upset in the last week.
She said that she does not know if I have MSBP as she does not understand what it is and even with Meadow's evidence on MSbP being discreditted she will not extend it to include me and said that she could not believe me because she had been told something quite contradictory, by people "In authority".
The only thing I can tell you is that I never did anything that could deliberately cause harm to my children,but I can not expect anyone to believe me because they were adopted and now this person is telling them that I got off on a technicality.
I thought that I was cleared by the criminal court because the prosecution could not find any evidence to prove I had committed a crime...despite trying for 4 weeks. I did not do anything, so there was n evidence. But in the civil court the burden of proof is different and it was taken on the balance of probabilities. One of the main things that Meadow's said about me was that I had Munchausen's syndrome and that the illness that I have now been proven to have, and has put me in a wheelchair was too rare for me to have and therefore I had made it up and created the symptoms. This was then extended by saying if I did this to myself then the likelyhood was that I had MSbP and that my children would be in danger if they stayed with me...so they were adopted.
Recently they received letters telling them why they were adopted and the adoptive parents broke off what little contact I had had with them due to the fact that I told them that I wanted to tell the children the truth of what had happened all those years ago and why they were taken away from me. I have not been able to do this and it is now breaking my heart that their heads are being filled with lies about me and about why they were adopted and to find out that they are being told I got off on a technicality has set me doubting myself...and did I really?
The only thing I am certain off at the moment is that I did nothing wrong and that I love them both very much and I would do anything to tell them this.
I first told my 'story' almost a year ago on mumsnet, since then I have had fantastic help and support, but this was the only place that I could think of asking for an honest answer to my question.
I have seen several psychiatrists etc who have all said that I do not have MSbP and that my illness is very real. I hope this makes sense to you Jampot and I am sorry that I can not give you anymore details.
Bunglie

Bunglie - that is the saddest thing I have ever read on MN. Can I ask how long ago this was and can you appeal?

Bunglie, no you bloody well didn't get off on a technicality, you got off because you were not guilty.

You were so not guilty that the judge directed the jury to find you not guilty.

The legal presumption in England is that you are innocent until proven guilty. You weren't proven guilty. Therefore, you are innocent.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is doing so because of their own evil agenda. Please don't listen to them, they have nothing of any value to add to this situation.

((((virtual hugs))))

Also can your solicitor supply you with a court transcript so you can see exactly what was said

Bunglie - IMHO you don't usually "get off on a technicality" after 4 weeks of 'evidence'. The legal technicality bit is usually brought in when the original case has finished and an appeal has been submitted, eg the judge summed up the case wrongly, X/Y/Z wasn't made known to the jury etc. Not guilty means just that - NOT GUILTY.

P.S. The be-nice-to-Bunglie essence you spiked my drink with has worn off now so this is an honest opinion.

It was over 15 years ago Jampot and although I did have a right of appeal at the time, the chances of mewinning it were almost zero, and I could not bare for my children to spend another 2 years in foster homes, not knowing what their future was so I decided not to appeal...(tbh I could not afford it either).
To me it was important that if I could not give my children the love that they so desperately needed, during these their formative years, then I wanted them to be settled somewhere that they could get that love and stability.
I never signed a piece of paper saying I agreed to the adoption, because I did not and I never wanted them to be able to see that I had 'signed them away', but I held the view that the court released them they sign the papers.
I retrospect maybe I was wrong and I should have continued to fight no matter what, but this would have meant another 2 years (at least) of uncertainty for the children and I could not think of that and what I wanted, it was as I said to me a priority that they had stability before this whole 'fiasco' damaged them more emotionally.
I hope that makes sense to you and you can understand why I did not keep fighting...I guessalso after being 'ripped to shreds' in the court I was mentally tired and felt that I had to letgo, but it was the hardest decission I have ever had to make in my life...
Would I make the same decission today ...I don't know, but 15 years ago MSBP was a 'new' thing, it is not now and people are beginning to realise.

Oh Bunglie we all believe you. A judge stopping a trial in this way is NOT a technicality - it's an admission that the case shouldn't even have come to court, and carrying on with it would be a waste of the court's/judge's/jury's time. Directing the jury to return the verdict is just to get "closure" as the English legal system needs an outcome to a trial. Ironically, in a way, it's almost working against you now, because the proof that your illness is genuine is undoubtedly sufficient "new evidence" to have won you an appeal against a conviction.

I'm sure that "she who must not be named" has probably lived with the certainty (in her own mind) that she was in the right for so long, that she now has to say it out loud to reaffirm it, as she can't stand the thought that she might have been wrong, and therefore at least in part responsible for the consequences. She's feeling backed into a corner by the discrediting of Meadow, and lashing out as a result of it. It makes no difference to the truth as you know it. Please try not to be too affected by it - that's what she wants to happen - and think instead of all the far more influential people (EH, BB, etc) who are convinced on your behalf that a miscarriage of justice has occured.

Bunglie - your story has honestly made me cry (and that doesn't happen easily). I could not bear to be separated from my kids especially because of some arsehole "expert"'s misguided theories. The truth will come out to your children and I sincerely hope that you are able to see them again. I have signed your petition already and will forward it to everyone in my address book - what else can we all do?

Bunglie, who imposed your gagging order and can you apply to have it lifted for starters. If you are able to speak out it may help

THANK YOU Jampot and Twiglett,

You have told me what I needed to hear...but could not tell myself in case I was just trying to 'kid' myself.

Jampot all I can ask of anyone is to make as many people as possible aware of what has been happening to thousands of families in this country, for years. We as mothers can not speak out for ourselves, but I am sure you are right that in time 'all will come right and the truth will be known'. That is my prayer every night.

In the meantime if Bunglie 'goes off on one', as she has for the last week....please try and understand why, even if you do not know the reason behind it.

Thank you again Lunarsea for your clear explanation...I am now not going to let it upset me or get in my way....I have too much to live for and that includes the hope that one day my children will know the truth.

I often find it hard around birthdays and Christmas but it has got easier as time went on, that was until recently and I think that this person 'who shall not be named!' will not speak to me again but I think that she NEEDS to believe that I am guilty to justify what has happened and the part she played in me loosing my children, and you are right LunarSea she can not 'afford' to believe in me.

Well thank you again and this Bunglie now needs to go and lie down and get some tissues as she can hardly see what she is typing due to tears!

Agh! did I put Twiglett...I meant Lunasea!

(Although I love you too Twiglett)

No, the gagging orders are not going to be lifted...imagine what would happen!?

Coppertop...glad the 'essence' has warn off , does this mean we are back to thread killing.....

Bunglie, sorry i missed the last few days on the thread, hope you are feeling back on top of stuff. I ECHO (yes this time i shout it) Lunarseas words (a wise and eloquent person!!!)

When in doubt read that posting and remember 'bitch that shall not be named' (if i remember correctly) is getting older and often for people with that comes a need to reasses life and to make peace and justification for thier actions before one meets their maker.

Keep smiling

and communications with DS????

sorry meant to say
any communications......

I am sorry but I need some legal advice again...well it is not really legal advice...let me explain.

'She who shall not be named' sent me a letter today... I have just opened it and she states that this is what she was told....

"....We were told that the judge had stopped the hearing at the end of the prosecution case, called the barristers to him and informed your barrister that he must persuade you to be bound over to keep the peace for two years. His reason for doing this was because he felt that if the case went to the jury, they would find you guilty and he would have no option to send you to prison for ten years, which would serve no purpose. I think the charge was 'administration of a obnoxious substances with intent to harm'and he, the Judge, did not feel that any 'intent' had been shown."

Apart from the fact that the charge is 'way off' and there are other things in this letter from her I can disprove...that is up to me as whether I bother to prove to her that she is wrong and 'lying to herself' and I have not yet decided whether to respond to this letter, that she did not even sign!

Would a Judge if he thought that a jury would find you guilty call your barrister in and ask you to be 'bound over to keep the peace' for 2 years...which again was not the case...but If she was told this does it sound realistic...or am I correct in thinking that if a Judge thought the jury would find me guilty he had a 'duty' to let it go to the jury?

I am really sorry to ask you, but I could have done without this letter....and it has upset me greatly the contents, I just wondered whether a person 'in authority' in your opinion would say such a thing?

Bunglie

hi bunglie - only just caught up on all this after the weekend.

first of all - my view as a sort of professional though admittedly little experience of criminal - if a judge thought there was so little case that he felt happy to dismiss it himself, rather than put it to the jury, is that the judge strongly believed in your innocence and the groundlessness of the case against you.

secondly - if the judge thought you were guilty, he wouldn't say there was no case against you - he would leave it up to the jury, andc if he didn't want you sentenced to ten years, then he would use whatever his discretion was to give you as light a punishment as possible for the charge.

i think someone for whatever reason is winding you up - either because they cannot face the guilt of their actions if they admit they are wrong or more sinisterly, as they are deliberately trying to hurt you.

Bunglie - are you able to actually seek legal advice by actually speaking to a lawyer in view of your gagging order? It seems to me that this "bwmnbn" is trying to keep you down after putting you there in the first place.

bunglie - the first bit of my post didn't really make any sense

here goes again:-

to my mind, if a judge kicked a case out instead of letting it go to the jury, that suggests to me that your innocence of what you had been accused of came through very strongly to the judge

So have I got this right...sorry feeling a bit upset.

If the judge did think that I was guilty he would not have made an offer to 'bind me over to keep the peace for two years' he would have let it go to the Jury and if they had found me guilty he would have used his discretion in sentencing me...

Does it seem reasonable that this person believed this story then and does still believe it now...my father was a JP so he would have known the law! Does it sound plausable?

I guess I am trying to work out why she has done this to me and will not except the fact that I did nothing wrong and that even if she did think that I HAD MSbP, why does she not extend the fact of Meadow's evidence being discreditted to me?

Yes,I think this letter does need to go to a solicitor as there are some pretty 'wild' accusations in it, (but she made certain that she did not sign it!), I have the documents to disproove these accusations..but do I, or do I just say enough is enough and believe what you want as I don't think that she wants to believe the truth and if she did, she would believe me now...wouldn't she?

Perhaps it is time that I stopped letting her get at me and realised that she is never going to admit she was wrong. I don't think that I will ever be able to convince her if she does not want to believe it.

I can not work out after 15 years why it hurts so much that she still thinks I am guilty and deserved to loose my children.

Bunglie - you need a proper lawyer for this, but:

1. There are ways, other than a signature, of attributing authorship for legal purposes. Otherwise anyone could write anything they liked as long as they didn't sign it.
2. Unfortunately, unless these accusations are repeated to anyone else (in which case libel/slander could come into it) there probably isn't much you can do, unless you wanted to persue it as harrassment or stalking (which you could if the letters/calls became habitual).

Just realised I have the envelope with her handwriting on and postmark.

I think that it will go to the lawyer as I am too tired to keep being told I am wrong by her and her 'version' is true. This is a fight the solicitor can take up with her.

I think those of you who realise who it is realise why I am so worried as well, because she will pass on 'her version'

I am not going to let it get to me anymore...thank you. I am sorry I just needed a bit of reassurance upon reading it this morning.

Bunglie has stopped 'flipping out'....(for the time being)...I'm off to console myself in my 'lost' bar of chocolate.

Oh and this Bunglie would just like to make it clear that she was NOT 'Bound over to keep the Peace' for 2 years!

Bunglie- have missed bits- sorry but just read about the letter. This woman is harrassing you IMO. Personally i'd go to see a solicitor with this letter and ask their advice about whether you should contact the police- there's a new thing the police can do now as well.
She's ruined your life once and she's still having a pop.
Phone a solicitor to make an appointment

She is harrassing you. You can't make her see sense if she doesn't want to - and she has a very strong vested interest in believing you are bad, after all. If she came to believe that she was wrong, what a terrible person that would make her, eh?
There is no such thing as 'proven innocent' as everyone is 'innocent until proven guilty' - ie, in law, if you aren't guilty, you are innocent. Full stop.
Please try to ignore her. Throw the poisonous witch's poison pen letters in the bin unopened. She isn't worthy of your head space.
She has tried to destroy your life, don't give her the benefit of any of your mental or emotional energy.
She's a vile hag.

You know what I think anyway. That the truth has stayed hidden for too long. Her 'version' - ie lies will always have a space to thrive when the truth isn't there to fill the gap.