MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

[Bunglie]

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

Amazing... if it wasnt so serious it would be funny....

My children were taken and placed in the care of SS, I asked for a review of our case and it was refused as only one medical expert opinion was used as evidence so it was not disputed.... (not within the remit)

what about all the other cases duped this way? how many of the cases looked at had only one medical opinion? (did they check if these were flawed in any way by asking for a second opinion) is this why those cases were classed as not flawed??? were those cases included in any part of the review at all??? or was it just the ones with 2 medical opinions where the Dr's agreed?
Do they believe that just because only one opinion was used that this opinion was not flawed???

an Independent review is needed*......

ICKT- Yes, an independant review is needed.Just got out of hosp (again) Will email you!

Sobeit- I have just got back to find my package containing 2 dvd's of the Mama film. A box of tissues does not come into it, I have only just watched it and only just stopped crying.
I can not explain how it made me feel especially the interview with Roy Meadows...to be honest I was having 'murderous' feelings towards him for what he has done, and I of all people should realise the extent to which MSbP allegations have been placed on people, and yet I was so unprepared for what I have just seen.
It is on my Xmas Pressie list...I paid £16.95 for 2 dvd's and to me I have the problem of who gets the other one???
I would so much like to send it to so many people but I think that 'she whose name shall not be mentioned' and who wrote me the letters etc is going to get it. I shall order another couple for some other people but I want to make certain that I have two copies, one for each of my children. They need not believe what I have to say but it is hard to ignore the facts on this dvd and especially if you look at the 'updates' at the end which are 'bang' up to date with the latest info on Southall and Meadows. I hope one day that I will be able to give my children this dvd. I can not tell them what these people have done in a more poignant(sp) way, but I think that they need to know and that they have a right to know.
I think that the journalist was amazing, but he summed it up right at the end when he likened what was happening to witch trials...I think I owe an awful lot to a lot of people I can never thank but who have gone through personal tragedy and survived to help others. I wish I had their strength.
I think that everyone should see the MAMA movie, if they are a parent, but yes do as ICKT says, get a BIG box of tissues.

I have been away in hosp with a catheter infection again (no Wigwambam et al did not manage to lock me in 'Bunglies Box' hee! hee!). But thank you to the mumsnetter who decided that my fashion sense needed improoving! As I am in a wheelchair I do not wear shoes and today I got two pairs of very nice 'trendy' socks in the post.....Thank you my feet now feel 'in fashion!'

Watching the mama dvd with my family raised so many questions - mainly - how can those evil professors do such a thing and get away with it?
It raised some tears here too. Are these people being investigated? did you see the one named meadows hit the microphone and get all defensive about the questioning. Those poor parents and children - I was very glad to see they have so many good fighters on their side. This movie / documentary should be shown to the public - it would probably cause uproar - but the truth should be shown. It makes me shake with anger just thinking about it - keep up your good work - you may not think it - but you are getting somewhere... It must be very frustrating but you are educating the public. I will share the dvd with as many people as possible - there doesn't seem much else I can do - but I am thinking of all those who are / have been falsely accused - and will continue to let people know.
God bless - sobeit

Our womens group are going to be watching the dvd on Tuesday night - I will let you know what the outcome is, Comments etc - We (daughters and I ) have been telling the women about what is happening and they are interested in seeing the documentary. One of them has read Sally Clarkes book and loaned it to me. Many have taken an interest since hearing about Sally Clarke - Angela Cnnings and Trupti Patel - some thought they were all the cases, but now know that there are many more!

Bunglie - I went to the mama site you have put a link to and it does not work - keeps coming up with a jumbled code - is the site down and if so, will it be back soon, some of the mums we know want to read the pages and are experiencing the same problem as me?

(Remember - Happiness is Togetherness) sobeit

sobeit when the jiberish comes up on the MAMA site if you click refresh it loads the page properly...
it has always been this way 4 me when viewing the site..

I was looking for pigs, but had to settle for frogs. Maybe I'll have better luck in the usa.

Sofia Thank you

Sobeit...I have the same problem with the MAMA site, sorry but yes you can do as IKNT says and click refresh or just go to 'MSBP.com'. I would be really interested to know what your womens group think but I have not read Angela Cannings book myself as I thought it may upset me too much.... I hope that one day I will manage to read it and that I can be less emotional about all of this as part of it is 'self protection' as I am feeling very vulnerable at the moment and I feel that I am hanging onto sanity by a thread!
I wish that I had the confidence of others and the strength of people like Angela Cannings and I realise that I owe a lot to others who have stood up and fought on my behalf...I hope that one day I will not feel vulnerable and have the strength that I need.
Thank you seems hardly adequate.

Thank you IKNT and Bunglie - we refreshed the pages on the mama board and it worked - haven't had time to read much yet though.

Bunglie - nobody could blame you for feeling so fragile - you have achieved a lot though by opening up on the mumsnet pages - my family have learned a lot because of the links and items you have listed here - because of you we saw the mama dvd and others are waiting to watch it.

Shame that you all have to fight so hard to get the truth known and save others from such evil that is happening- I for one am now an avid supporter of your campaigning and will continue to spread the word.

All the best - sobeit

Bunglie, I just wanted to thank you for opening up this thread. I had been directed to it following another posting.

I understand how hard it is sitting infront of the computer typing about these experiences when you would swap everyhting in the world in a instant to be with your children. I am lucky in a way for the fact my ds wasnt adopted and xp has him, I now have open access. I had pnd but was also was mis-diagnosed by an 'expert' for having pd which has been completely disproved, but not in time for the court to take my baby. By the time we gathered enough evidence to prove my sanity toop much time (2 years) had elapsed in their eyes for him to return to me (by this time he was 3.) I now have regular staying access - every fortnight & holidays and our bond is very strong (always has been) and he wants to live with me. xp was told by sw and gal and the beginning that i was never getting better and he had to choose between us as if he tried to support me ds would be adopted.

New sw admitted 'off the record' that this should never have happened but the courts and legal system find it hard too. Even my solicitor will say that she knows/sees that things like provate meetings between sw, gal and expertwitness were wrong but has said it will not change current situation.

btw, I am now a 2nd year student nurse and am doing real well on the course. Been off anti depressants for nearly 3 years which were paroxatine.. dont get me started on those!! Oh and my psychiatrists supported me but because they said this whole case was barmy, he got thrown out of court!

Anyway, I count my blessings I still see my son, I just wish that I could make everythng right.

Awen - Your story really has brought tears to my eyes, it seems to be something I have heard too many times. Firstly it must be heart wrenching to know that you can not be your sons mother 100% of the time. I have heard of the Social Workers saying that they had given the husband or partner the choice of being the parent and not having that child adopted but yours is the first case I have heard of where it really happened. How awful for you and your xp to have to choose like that. I was told that my dh had been given this choice but he had not, but I guess had I known that he had then I would have pushed him out the door and begged him to choose my children over me.
I also know what you mean when you say that they told you that 2 years was too long to rehabilitate you with your ds. Believe me they said the same to me and many other mothers.
The problem here I think is the judicial system. It is slow and by the time it gets to court they say it is too late. I know to a lot of people reading this must think that it sounds ridiculous, but it is true.
You are a strong person and obviously doing well. Congratulations in your nursing and for managing to 'pull' your life back together it can not have been easy.
I think that pnd is only too common and yet still it goes undiagnosed.
Thank you for joining our small thread here on mumsnet, I hope that you find some support. I am sad though that yet another mother is here and yet happy that you have found understanding and support.
Please if you ever would like any help then ask and I know that someone here will have the advice that you need.
Love,
Bunglie

Bunglie - Thank you x x
It meant a lot reading your reply. I also concur with your view of it being sad for other mothers to be in this situation but I am also grateful of the understanding and support of your reply. Dont know if that made sense.

I am off to start my run of night shifts at the hospital soon so wont be on again tonight. MY eyes are all puffy though so i hope I dont scare my patients!!

I know this sounds sappy but my ds says he dreams about me a lot and I too dream about him and I kind of hope that at those times we are together too.. sheesh that does sound daft but it gives me comfort.

Anyway, i must go get ready.. take care.

Big hugs to you xxxx

I feel quite humbled. There are people thanking me! Why? I have done nothing special except told you of my situation. If that helps others I am glad but to be honest it is more selfish of me as it is my way of releasing my feelings and at the same time I get reassurance and advice. So I have not done anything 'special' Awen, just tried to be honest.
No, Awen you do not sound 'sappy' nor do you sound as if you are 'daft'. Your reply makes perfect sense to me.
I remember when I used to leave my ds crying after a contact visit. hearing him call out and plead to 'come home' with me was sometimes just too much, so I told him that when he was sad to look at the moon and the stars at night and I would be looking at them too and we could talk like that. It seemed to calm him down and for a while he did 'talk' to the moon. I still do to this day talk to the moon and if I want to tell either of my children anything then I tell the moon!
So I guess we all have coping mechanisms. I do not know how things will turn out in the future for myself but I feel confident that you are a very stable and sane person, so that leaves me to ask the question which I know the answer to, so please don't think that I am really asking you, but why are perfectly normal mothers not allowed to look after their children? Why if PND is accepted and help is available should a child be deprived of motherly comforts for it's entire life. I am beginning to wonder if I have missed something that the rest of the world sees, but I can not see any justification in Awen being seperated from her ds, but then I think that it is time that we got the family courts sorted out. An investigation into MSbP and stopped splitting loving parents from their children.

Does anyone know anymore about this new documentary about children in care that is starting sometime this week?
IKNT - email on it's way!

Spuddy and Cheesy have heard back from the council re their housing application. I am confused, why do they have to be 'partners' if they want to share a flat why not just friends which they are? More later on them when I have spoken to them.
Postsue, are you Okay?

Bunglie I have to say that all mums parted from their children are still a 100% mother to their children, I used to see my ds for 2hrs a week and believe me we cramed more than you could imagine into that time. I think what your trying to say to Awen is your sorry for her not being able to be with ds 24/7 100% of the time.. In which I couldnt agree with you more..

Awen.. Welcome, and feel free to winge about anything getting you down no matter how small or big, any time night or day..

when I had to leave my son due to access ending we would pick a place somewhere in the world that either of us would one day like to visit, hen we would agree on a time and go to sleep at that time each night and dream of our place where ever it was we picked (i.e) Disney World or a nice tropical beach, and we could see each other there and chat about anything we wanted, for as long as we wanted, with no one babysitting us, so we met up in dreams of a life that was relaxed and free.... Like my ds told me.. "dreams are wishes he heart makes" it kept us together emotionally and helped us deal with all that was happening at that time.

I often wonder if or how it an be justified when the courts and SS come to the conclusion that if u've been seperated from your child for over 2 yrs its too late to rehabilitate you all to be a family.
In my opinion it seems a very hypacitical excuse/reason for the courts and SS to use. I mean look at it this way.. if a partner is given the choice between mum and child and chooses mum, what are they going to do with the child? place it for adoption? surley its too late to do this also because they wont have been with the foster family for the two yrs prior to adopting, so how can they in theory habilitate a child into the adoption home but not with the biological mother? whats the diffrence between adoption to a stranger or rehabilitate the family unit??
I fully believe that reunification and rehabilitation is cheeper on the government and that a child would chose parents evey time if given a chioce even after 100 yrs apart.. I was in the care system from the age of 6 and although I couldn remember much about my mother I was determined to reunite with her some fine day in the future..
I wasnt so lucky in my search and kinda found my mother 6wks after she had passed away.. So having been wihout parents and sat in the seat of the child removed from home.. I still feel no matter how hard it may look or seem... rehabilitate do it as soon as can possibly can be done, (I would have given anything to have my mother and father caring for me) because believe me any child no matter how young or old will be devistated to find out at a later date that the government of our contry released them from their families and made them a case, a number ..
an adopted child!!!

sobeit, thank you so much for your belief in us, and a bigger thanks for your suport and trying at least to make others aware of what happens to so many parents and their children...Awem best of luck in your course, keep up the good work..

Bunglie c'mon ge that email out of the puter and on its way k?
Oh and bunglie as much as you think your just another mother, and live according to that belief and making it fit in wih your lifestyle.. then you have to be a pretty strong person also... and a 100% mother to your children...
I must confess when my children were taken I didnt get out of bed for three months (an hr a week to see my son at the time thats the only time I got up).... I was devistated and if what happened to you and your children is anything to compare by... I say well done to you for keeping on in here no matter what life has/is thowing at you.

now thats strength to stil be here and educate other peolpe of whats happening in your world and of what could so easily happen to them, if something is not done to stop this happening in our future..

I hope I havent bored anyone here, I hardly say 2 words for weeks on end and now its all chatter chater chater .. sorry it went on in the length of a bunglie post...
see bunglie this is what its like reading your posts

just joking, longer posts, more info to gain I say... Hope your feeling better now Bunglie?

Take care all and be safe

But the argument that it's too late and too much time has passed just doesn't hold water. What should have been happening once it was discovered that the diagnosis was wrong, was that the children should have been prepared to return home to their mothers, and SS and the host family and everyone else should have been working towards that end. Even if it took a year or longer, it could have been accomplished without too much disruption to the children and in the end they would have been where they should have been in the first place - at home. They do that for adoption placements, why not for returning children back home?

Oh- I am only writing here because I am so angry and feel as if I will explode if I don't get rid of my negative feelings, if that makes any sense.

I have been told that I agreed to the adoption of my children....NO , I nor my dh ever agreed to the adoption. we held the view that the court released our children for adoption and it was therefore up to them to sign the papers etc. We never wanted the children (now young adults) to find a piece of paper signed by us 'giving them up' so we went to great lengths never to sign any form of agreement. I have just been told that I 'verbally' agreed to the adoption and that a 'contact order' was not made because I again verbally agreed to contact 3 times a year. How do you fight something like this? How can I prove to my children that I fought for them and never agreed to anything apart from the fact that I gave up the fight so that they could have a stable home that I could not give them, due to the court ruling.
I never agreed to the adoption of my children but I did stop fighting for them so that they could have the life and security that I knew I would not be allowed to give them.....does this mean because I did not appeal the judges decission (we were told that we did not stand a chance of winning)that I agreed to the adoption? I never wanted my children to see a peice of paper saying that I agreed to their adoption, hence I did not sign one, but in giving up the fight so that they could be settled in a home, does that mean I made a 'verbal' agreement? I do not understand.

I feel very hurt at the moment but I guess I have no right to be. The adoption agency has just put the phone down on me and said that I am causing unpleasantness for everyone with my persistance in argueing petty facts. To me they are not petty facts but crucial as to how my ds and dd perceive me and how I did fight to keep them. I do not understand either why they feel it necessary to tell me that I agreed to things that I did not when both my children will soon be old enough to make their own decissions.
Maybe it is because the 'adoptive nother' is on the board of the adoption agency.
I know I should not be posting this but I feel as if I will explode if I don't get it out of my system and I wish I could make sense of it all.
What I do not understand is that if I and the AP's have the childrens best intertests at heart then why am I prevented from telling them the truth and more lies seem to be appearing in defence of their adoption. It sometimes makes me wonder if I will ever be able to have a 'normal' relationship with either of my children as they have gone to great extents to try to prove that I would have been an unfit mother and that I am mentally ill with this MSbP. It seems to have made them more agressive in that they have made contact impossible and given my dd a letter not meant for her until she is 18. I am almost beginning to wonder that if I had never challenged anything that things may have been OK.
I hope and pray that when my dd is 18 that she will see for herself the facts, until then I just hope that the people who have done this can live with their conciences and realise that it is not them I am questioning but the system that allowed it to happen.
It seems as if everybody is their to protect the AP's but no one is there for me or my children. Surely the most important thing is that both my children know the truth and that they were not 'given up' by me or that I did anything to hurt either of them. Why then am I prevented from telling them this and do they persist in calling me a liar. I am almost beginning to wonder if I am deluding myself but I know in my heart of hearts that I did nothing to hurt my dd or ds and that the evidence against me was fabrication. How do I proove this to my children, who I love so much that it is breaking my heart knowing they are being told lies about me?

Oh Bunglie

My heart breaks for you - it really does! How the hell can a bunch of mums who don't know you from Adam 'get it' yet these people just can't.

I think it is all vested interest - no one wants to take the responsbility for having F**D up your childrens' lives and your lives - so they just play silly buggers with the truth.

What they just don't get is that the truth is all that matters.

I'm so angry on your behalf - but if it is possible to be, I'm even more angry on you chilrens' behalf. The system that was supposed to support them has faled them badly, not once, not twice, but over and over again. I bet they just don't know what the hell to think anymore - who are they supposed to trust - who are they supposed to believe????

Bunglie - I know I've said this many times before - but please cling to the fact that your time will come and the truth will out - and that day will be worth all of your pain through this horrid time!

In the meantime - hugs to you
Jxx

Awen - Welcome - I hope you will find some support here

Oh, Bunglie

They will know the truth - eventually - I know it's terribly hard not to be allowed to give them an honest account of what really happened, but they already know that a lot of lies and half-truths and exaggerations have been told by certain parties so I'm sure they will be listening to what they are told with quite a bit of scepticism.

I think you are right that the AM's presence on the adoption agency's board is behind most of this. Of course this is not a "petty fact". They just want you to go away and let them stop thinking about and facing up to what's been done. Hugs. XXX

PS Email from me soon, promise!

Bunglie, I could cry for you. I know that there's nothing I or anyone else can say that will make you feel any better or give you any comfort, but I just felt I had to say something. I am in awe of the strength and courage that you and the other lost mothers have shown in the face of everything, and the dignity and honesty that you have shown all the way through these threads, and one day your children will be able to see this too.

I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you and sending hugs.

Thank you everyone, I feel a bit better today. I have got some papers to sort out in a bit but needed to cheer myself up before I started looking at them.
I find reading some of the old documents emotionally draining and it is a release in a way to be able to come to mumsnet and just have a laugh and joke with friends.
So thank you everyone you do not know how much you are all helping me, and the other mums to.

Womens evening went well - only four watched the mama dvd on Tuesday and I have loaned it out so the others can get chance to see it. It struck up quite a debate and I know we will be discussing it further. Thank you for letting me know about the dvd, it makes things easier to explain to people and they are genuinely shocked after watching it. I don't know if it will help further, but will continue to loan out the dvd and ask if all will sign a petition.

Thanks again - sobeit

Sobeit you are a star.
Thank you. I would be interested to know of the 4 people who watched it if the actually believed it. It has been suggested to me that it is something that people are finding hard to believe and that it has been going on for so long.
I am asking because I sent the other copy of the DVD's I got to someone who does not believe that Meadow's was wrong and that MSbP exists etc. I wonder if you thought that this movie is powerful enough to make her think twice, if not believe it, or what. I am asking you because I feel too close to be objective, and to me it was very emotional, so I would be interested in knowing what sort of comments were made. Both good and bad. I am sorry to ask you this, but you are the only person that I know of who is not directly affected by false allegations to have seen the movie.

On to happier things....How is your dd? Well I hope and not too uncomfortable. Is she due at the beginning or end of January? I hope that this Christmas and New Year is the start of something very special for you both and that your 'new' relationship will grow and that you will bond even more. I am sure that she is getting nervous and wants her mum...so enjoy this time together and I sincerely hope that 2005 is a wonderful year for your family.
Thank you again for everything Sobeit.
Love Bunglie

Bunglie,

of the four people who watched the dvd, one does not know what to think and will be watching it again. The other three are left numbed and shocked by it - they believe that parents are being wrongfully accused now they have seen the dvd. I could not stay long at Tuesdays meeting and the next meeting is our last before christmas in a few weeks - I will try and find out what their feelings are probalby chatting on the phone over the next few weeks and let you know. I hope that watching the dvd and sharing views will help in the sense that they will want to keep the discussion open.

My dd is heavily pregnant now, the baby is due middle of January - we have become very close and I can feel that so much - will let you know when the d granddaughter is born.

I will try and show the dvd to as many people as possible before christmas and will send to a womens group in London - I think the more people who see it - the better.

There are message boards for womens group on the net, I will try and post some info about the dvd as it may reach the right people - still think the documentary should be shown on tv.

Wishing you well - sobeit

Hello again, sorry it has been a while, been working nights at hospital and now up doing blasted assignment on assessment.

Bunglie - The biggest hugs are being sent to you, som much of what you say i get esp the moon talking bit. I just dont know what to say in respect of your situation tho. When i read what is happening for you it kinda makes me feel humble. You are right tho, something needs to be done. To be honest I am so frightened of the system taking him completely away that it stops me speaking out. His dad has just freely given me another night a week so I now have him 3 nights every other week. When at work people ask how i manage my course with a child and I end up explaining the situation and feeling like a failure.

IKNT after the first court case (the one where they said i was mad and would never recover)my contact was reduced to 2 hours supervised access a fortnight so that it didnt disrupt ds. Did we cram a lot in! It was so nice when it when unsupervised to hold him close without being 'assessed'.

Love to you all and to your children too xxxx

I don't really know what to say to you all. You pick me up when I need it and thank you seems hardly adequate.
I have had a bit of a tough few days and not been able to log on much but I hope to be able to write properly tomorrow.

IKNT email is on it's way with an attachment.
Awen, Stay strong for your son, you are doing so well and I don't think anyone can be that worried about you anymore if you have unsurpervised access. I think that you need to build up your self-confidence as a mother, and we are here for you. Finally I am sure that your biggest fear is that something happens to him whilst in your care and you will be blamed. I do hope that you have a good circle of frinds or family that you can use for support, if not again we are here and none of us have any doubt in your ability. You sound like a great mother and you and your ds I am sure will have a very special relationship.
Sobeit- Please do keep us updated as to the progress of your dd's pg...the 19th of January is a very good day to have a baby on...but I am not saying why and it is not my birthday... either way whenever she has your grandchild it will be cause for celebration on this thread...and we will need a celebration by the time we have all got through Christmas I think.
I will write more news about Cheesy and Spuddy soon.
Love to all Bunglie XX

Apparently there is a programme on at 7.30 pm tonight on BBC One called Real Story

John Sweeney continues with an award winning investigation examining cases where mothers have been accused of harming their babies.

I think that it should make quite interesting viewing.