MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

[Bunglie]

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

WOW! That is one article with so much info in it I had to read it twice!

I do not know where to start...but I would suggest that everyone tries to read it...It is quite long but it is thorough and looks at the problem from all angles...

As Penny Mellor says "Children are taken away - but the system can't admit it was wrong"

I think this statement sums it all up!

But I shall go back and read it again, and again if necessary, Is it me but do I detect that a lot of it is broken down to monetry costs and terms? For example it is cheaper to adopt a child than try to rehabillitate it?

I would be really interested to know what others think of all of this...please help a Bunglie out by telling me your interpretation of this article....There is so much though and I am truelly shocked by some of what I have just read...and yet if anyone should have known this it should have been me!

I read Helena Kennedys report, it was in my opinion very thorough and excellent, but 'heavy going'. I am so glad that some people are starting to take notice and that some parents have had the courage to speak out. I wish I had that courage...

I just want to explain why I have not got the courage to speak out.

...If I spoke out and told my story I personally feel that it would be wrong at this time. Because until I have had a chance to tell my children why they were adopted I feel that it is something that I must keep to myself now. I hope that they find the 'truth' out soon, but I also hope that they find the support that they are going to need when they do...

Do you therefore understand why I am now more guarded as to what I post relating to myself, as someone said to me..."How would you feel if your children found your postings and read them" the answer is devasted, as I am sure they would be.

Hello again Bunglie. Just a thought, do you think it might be worth contacting a show like the 'TRISHA show'?... There seems to be enough of you campaigning for the same cause, maybe the Trisha show would listen? As I said - just a thought...
All the best - sobeit

Hello Sobeit,

I understand what you are saying about the 'Trisha' show, and I can see your point fully.

However, the one problem is that although some mother's have spoken out, I doubt that it is on television or in the press. Most of us have what is called a 'gagging order' on us, so we can not tell anybody what happened. Now, I doubt that they would put me in prison for breaking it but they most certainlt would not hesitate to put a journalist in prison....so you see if 'Trisha' did say 'yes' and was prepared to do a show on this She and the producers etc would be breaking the law as well as any mother who took part.

I am also not certain that this type of programme would be 'right' for such a serious issue, as they are well known, a bit like Jerry Springer, for their 'shock' tactics of bringing together seperated/adopted people and things like that. They tend to go for sensationalism or emotional issues, (like this), but I think more notice would be taken by those who can do something if say, Panorama for example did it...I am aware that Dispatches did a programme a while back...but I have not seen it I wish I had.
I would be interested what the rest of you thought...that is if the law were changed so that 'we' could speak out, and journalists could print our stories or 'air' them on the T.V. without fear of prosecution...?

It is an idea though worth bearing in mind sobeit, thank you...what did you think of the newspaper article in the Telegraph today? (a link to it below)

Love to you and your family, when is your grand-daughter due?
Bunglie XX

bunglie, really glad that i hadnt misinterpreted the article ( had to dash straight out and was really worried i had over reacted about it!!) I agree it was so imformative in a really concise fashion.

On the subject of speaking out i do now understand why you would not want to go public until you have been able to be 'public' and open with your children about the entire matter and as usual bow to you with respect for this decision once again. What a great mum you are !!!!

However, it concerns me that you would not want them to read this thread (quizical look on face!) i would have thought that it would show to them the depth of your, love, devotion and courage for them throughout and i really do not see any negatives in there for them. Obviously it would be somewhat bewildering to read it all but equally i think (FWIW) the whole thread is flooded with love for them and you. Deservedly so !!!! HTH as always

Thanks SMof2 The reason I would not want them to read it is because I have posted about them....about how confused they are and asked you all for your help in writing letters to them and sending txts, when in reality these should have been confidential between ourselves...and if they thought that I was discussing them, albeit for a good reason and for advice, I am sure they would feal a bit hurt that I could tell you all things that they themselves do not know, and should be the first to know.
What I do know is that without all of your help and support I would not have had the courage to even try and contact them to tell them the truth...only time will tell now, but in retrospect I can see I should not have posted about them or things they know nothing about because they would have been very hurt if they had to read about it for the first time on a public internet site. I hope that makes sense!??
Or do you think I am wrong? Please I do appreciate input and I only reservation is that I feel I want them to know, before they find out from another source.....
Fo example I found out about my father's death from reading a newspaper...I have never got over the fact that I was not told...I do not want them to feel like that.

So sorry that you found out about your fathers death that way and yes i do understand i too found out stuff about my family through less than direct means and felt it was wrong, but perhaps we had more reason to feel agrieved as they (our families) did not have any reason to be anything but honest.

I may well be wrong, and perhaps only time will tell, but i cannot begin to fathom how your dear children will feel anything but love and pride in you and your fight to a) maintain a loving and above all healthy relationship with them and b) clear your name and thus their heritage. No one would be niave in thinking that they will not have a huge amount to contend with (and i have posted resistance and caution to you on other occasions in your communications with them.) but i personally think that this whole thread has caught so many peoples love and admiration for you (and postsue, cheeseball and spudy et al) that in time (if not immediately) it cannot fail to catch theirs.

IMHO it will be part of thier legacy and heritage to know that because of you they were and are truly truly loved.

We all carry our own history and that does often cloud our judgements for the future and for others and whereas your feelings for them not finding out this way, i always felt that i was forced (unsuccessfully) to live in a family full of secrets and therefore have equally always believed that if the pain was part of my life I have the right to speak to whoever, whenever i NEED TO Do you see any sense in that. You would not expect them not to talk to those that can offer them help and comfort perhaps they would also feel the same. Lets see what others think as it bothers me that you seem to be holding yourself accountable in a negative way for this, instead of looking at your right to comfort, friendship and assistance and also how much it seems to have helped at least in offering you and the others a place to be.

sorry that was a bit jumbled up but hope you got the gist

Yes I did and thank you SMof2

Hello Bunglie. I can see what you mean about the Trisha show.

What an excellent job the Telegraph has done in highlighting what is happening. It is tough reading about all the turmoil and anguish families are suffering. It seems that you are reaching the public, I realise it must be terribly frustrating for you all, going over your life stories and having to fight on a daily basis - but you are educating the public and good on you all for doing so.

My grandaughter is due in early January, we are all looking forward to the event.

Staying with you and thinking of you... sobeit

SMof2
I have just had an email from my wonderful P.A. - Janh, she is going on holiday for a while . But I guess I should let my un-paid staff have a break every now and then and I do hope that she really enjoys it
Next she will want a pay rise...I think I can manage a 2% one...that is 2% of £0
she has asked me to tell you that she has not had a chance to send you the email she wanted to...(whatever it is??) curiosity killed the cat...so I am not asking!! However she will send it to you upon her return and is sorry it was not sent before! I don't think it was anything urgent but I said I would let you know and hence that is what I am doing......
Oh how am I to cope without my P.A....
But I do hope that she has a great time and manages to log on from her far flung destination....that's a point, I wonder where she is going? I am sure she will tell us when she comes home all refreshed and relaxed, and I hope she has a great time

Sobeit...awe! January that is not long.....has your dd logged onto any of the 'expecting' threads because I am sure that she would be more than welcome and she could link with mums who are due at about the same time.

I am not very good at knitting or anything but I bet you are? What a wonderful start to the New Year for you all and I do hope that everything goes well for her. Please keep us updated as I for one would love to know when he/she is born and all the details...I know I must seem nosey, but a new arrival into the world to me, is like a miracle, a tiny little miracle and an event that should be celebrated. I for one will be celebrating when I know that you are a Grand-mother and that all is well. It sounds like she could not have better help or experience than yourself when the 'little one' is born. I wish her all the love and luck in the world..and thank you for shareing with me your wonderful news.

Hello Bunglie. It is indeed a true miracle when a new baby is born - my DD is getting quite nervous the closer it gets to the day. She has been reading the pages on mumsnet and probably will join in on the pregnancy pages in the near future.
She does find the site very interesting and useful.

Thank you for all your warm wishes.

(Still collecting signatures for your petition)

sobeit

Bunglie, its lucky you are a bear not a cat, whereas i am a cat (leo)> and curiosity was making me very, very agitated now i can relax and wait patiently preening myself for my mail.

Thanks for letting me Know

This Bunglie would like your honest opinion, as for the last few days I have been feeling quite upset but have debated whether I should post why, I have now decided that you are my 'friends' but you do not know me and I trust that you will give me an opinion based on your true feelings rather than what you think I would like to hear. I hope that makes sense?
On thursday night someone spoke to me on the telephone...I do not have that much contact with them but they know where my children are and have frequent contact with them. They are also the person who spoke to Meadow's about me and told him a load of things that were not true and as you know not only did Meadow's decide that I had MSBP but I also had Munchausens syndrome. This has been proven not to be the case as the illness he said was too rare for me to have has actually placed me in a wheelchair...but this person (and I realise that some of you may realise who it is, but please don't post it!), said that they only told Meadow's what they did because they had been told if they did not then I would go to a place called Broadmoor and never see my children again.
As you know due to this person I lost my fight in the civil court and my children were freed for adoption....I have tried to understand why she said what she did, I have made excuses for her and said that she only did it because she felt that if she did nothing that I would loose my children and that she based what she said on the fact that if I did have MSBP I would get my children back. I hope that makes sense?

On Thursday night she told me that she believed that I got off in the criminal case against me on a "technicality". Not only do I feel very hurt about this as she did not go to any of the trial, but she said that is what "Case not proven" is. It was shown in the 4 weeks of prosecution evidence that what I was accused of doing could and most probably was caused by something else...and therefore the prosecution had not proven the charges against me and the Judge ordered the Jury to find me innocent. She said that she did not know that I had also been charged with 'child cruelty' which was voluntarily dropped by the prosecution as it was obvious that I had cared for and loved my child.
My question is do you think that if the prosecution fail to proove their case after 4 weeks of their witness evidence, and the Jury told that I should be found innocent because the prosecutions case could not be proven is 'getting off on a technicality'?
Please don't put answers that you think I want to hear, I need to know the truth here on what others think...did I in your opinions get off on a technicality or was I found innocent because I was innocent...
I very much need your true feelings and views on this as it has sent me almost into the realms of 'the padded cell' trying to work it out.
I do hope I am not asking too much of you but I do need the truth and what your interpretation would be so I can get on with my life, which seems to have come to a stand-still since discovering this.

I am so sorry to ask you this, and I know that I should not, but I do not know who to ask who will give me an unbiased answer and that is what I need.
Bunglie

Bunglie,

This person is a vicious manipulative witch, who finds every reason to make you doubt yourself.

She is filling your head with doubt. If three hundred people posred on here that you were guilty, you would still know in your heart of hearts, that you are innocent, and did nothing ever ever ever to have your life turn out this way.

Bunglie, I BELIEVE IN YOU! You are innocent, stop listening to that silly bi**h

Love
Kalex

Thank you...I am now crying, but not because I am sad.

You may like to know that I put the phone down on this person and said that if that is what they believed then I could not make them believe the truth, but I am sad that one person who has it in their power to realise that a 'mistake' happened all those years ago, and that the evidence of Meadow's has been discredited still thinks that the right decission was made and that they are still not prepared to say that I do not have MSBP because, I quote "I do not understand what a personality disorder is and when I am told by people in authority that you would have killed (name of child) if I did not speak out, that is why I did it, I want to believe you but have seen no evidence to support what you are saying is the truth, I only know what I was told".
It makes no difference to her that Meadows has been discedited, or that MSBP is under question as a diagnosis, and to be told that I got off on a technicality has made me really upset.
Thank you for your honesty...I needed to hear from someone who did not know me and also has nothing to loose or gain in this whole mess.
Thank you again...I will try and keep things in perspective and not be upset by this, but I hope you can understand why I felt so confused and hurt.

If know I did nothing to deliberately to cause harm to my child, but what worries me now is that my child does not know this and only time will make it possible for the truth to come out. I hope that when this time comes that they have not been too indoctrinated as to what an awful person I am and how I was a bad mother. I know that even today I would lay down my life for my childrens, as I believe any mother would if they love their child.

If nothing else I wish that the 'Family Courts' were open to the same scrutiny as the criminal courts and if this person truelly wanted to believe in me then would they have not made the effort to at least attend my trial, not take the word of a "person in authority" and continue to believe that a crime was committed.

Sorry I am waffeling again...but thank you

Sending virtual hugs across the internet to you Bunglie, the truth will come out!! You are a wonderful brave fantastic person. She is a ......., actually I can't put into words, but I hate her for hurting you like this.

Bunglie -I presume you mean theat the judge directed the jury to return a not guilty verdict ("not proven" only exists in Scotland as far as I am aware). To my mind that means that the prosecution didn't have enough evidence for the judge to consider it worth the jury's time even deliberating upon the it (or put another way - that given the evidence, the judge didn't think the case should even have come to court).

Bunglie - right from the first time you ever posted on here I believed in you, and I like to think of myself as a good judge of character

TBH who can say why someone thinks what they think? In any case the person concerned would never be able to admit to herself that she might have got it wrong as to do so would make her responsible for all that followed. Thats a big burden for someone to put their hands up to voluntarily. It would take someone incredibly strong to do that and I doubt that this person ever would be.

You know what the truth is. Don't let anyone ever persuade you otherwise

Bunglie, not that it's any of my business, but believe what your friends 'like soapbox' are telling you > You know what the truth is. Don't let anyone ever persuade you otherwise>

Because of people like yourself and others, the truth is getting out and the public are getting to know, you are doing too much good to let one person (who seems to understand nothing much) get to you. How awful you have been accused at all and are left suffering, 'makes me so angry'...But in your heart you know who is wrong - and it's not you and it's not all the other parents who have been falsely accused...one day soon, the public will know the truth and it will be due to the strength of people like yourself... till that day, listen to your heart Bunglie and know there are people out here who do care a lot and do believe in you.
My very best wishes to all...sobeit

LunarSea....(I will try and explain what happened)
The case opened. I was then formerly asked to respond to the charges to which I said 'Not Guilty' and then the prosecution barrister gave a short speach summing up 'his' evidence and why I was guilty. After that followed 4 weeks of prosecution evidence. Witnesses and the the police interview tapes were played. My Barrister cross examined each witness and during this process it became apparent that something else happened that probably caused my childs condition. I did not know about this previously and you could have heard a 'pin drop' in the court as this disclosure was made and admitted by the doctor concerned, (not Meadow's). After the prosecution had finished presenting their evidence the jury left and 'legal submissions' were made. I did not understand much of what was said as I must confess I was in a state of 'shock' and it all seemed very sureal to me at the time. I think it is because I can not remember all that was said during the 'legal submissions' that I wondered myself as to whether this person was right and I 'got off on a technicality'.
What I do remember very clearly is the Judge asking the prosecution if they intended to persue the 'Child Cruelty' charge...to which the prosecution Barrister said that they had every intention of withdrawing. The Judge then formerly stated that the charge had been withdrawn. With regard to the other charge my Barrister stated that in his view it had been shown that an alternative explanation had been made apparent to account for my childs condition and that he felt that the prosecution had therefore not proven the charge against me. The Judge agreed.
The Jury was then brought back into the court and the Judge explained to them that in his view the case against me had not been proven and that the other charge had been withdrawn by the prosecution. He then looked at a man who was sat at the end of the front row of the Jury and said that he would be required to act as the foreman. He instructed the man to stand up and when asked by the court official as to whether I was guilty or not guilty he was instructed to say "not guilty", which he duly did. The Judge then told me that I was free to go.

That is what happened as clearly as I can put it without putting in any details that could identify me or my children.

The case did not take place in Scotland...so does this mean that I did only get off on a technicality?

I did ask the barrister afterwards and he said "no", and he added that he had every confidence that I would not need to 'put up a defence' once the real reason for my childs condition became apparent. I asked him why he had not told me of this before and he said that it was something that he never does in cases like mine, but that I had not committed a crime and therefore there was no need for me to defend myself.

In a way I wish that I had been able to give a defense and been able to 'tell my story' on the stand, because it would have meant a lot more to me to have been found innocent by a jury of my peers rather than on the view of a single Judge. I hope that this makes some sort of sense, but I do remember being scared and frightened for those 4 weeks and at one point even doubting my own sanity.

The verdict made front page news in the local newspaper and I remember everyone telling me I would get my children back now. I was sent flowers from people I did not even know and I guess I was in shock when the judge in the Civil case ruled against me as it had been nearly 2 years since the children had been removed from my care and it was said that this period of time was too long for the children to be rehabillitated with me.

However Meadow's did not give evidence for the prosecution in the criminal trial and MSBP was not mentioned. It only became an issue when I was found 'not guilty'.

Therefore did I get off on a technicality...I would really like to know how others view this. I know my Barrister said 'no' but then he would, wouldn't he?

Finally the only other bit off info I can give you is that the prosecution could not find anyone to prosecute me...it was not until 2 weeks before the trial started that they finally did and it took the CPS over 6 months to decide whether they were going to proceed with the prosecution. I was told afterwards that they felt that they had to because of the civil proceedings being delayed due to it...does this make sense to you because it does not really to me.

I am sorry this is long, but I have tried to be as open and honest with you as I can, but there are some parts of the civil case that I can not tell you about and I am sure that I will get into 'trouble' for telling you all as much as I have. But it has really made me wonder and I feel rather hurt that the one person that I would have thought would believe me after all these years still thinks that I am guilty and as I have already said 'got off on a technicality'.

Your knowledge of legal things is greater than mine, so I hope that this makes some sense and I am sorry for bothering you all with something that is well in the past. I wondered if this one person thinks this then is it true...or does it appear to others that I got off on a technicality?

Bunglie - i hate to drag all this up but have only just read these threads and am gleaning that you have "lost" your chidren to the Courts because of suspected MSbP ? These threads are moving too quickly for me to catch up - if this is the case then I am so very sorry for you xx