MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

[Bunglie]

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

Thank you Jampots and to everyone who has said they would like to see the DVD, I am orderring some more today so if you would like one to keep I will order one for you, they cost about £10. But you can borrow one free. Hence I am orderring a few more to get them into circulation so people do not have to wait too long.

Bunglie, can you say who/what agency told you not that you weren't allowed to discuss this with your MP?
Absolutely outrageous in a so-called democratic society that anyone should be prevented from taking an issue to their elected representative. That's the whole point of sodding democracy! Honestly, abuses of democracy like this are the thin end of the wedge that leads to detention without trial (happening in a prison near you, now) and, eventually, dictatorship.
Will be writing to my MP, who was sympathetic and helpful last time.

Hi again, quick question bunglie.. did they review your case following the cannings case. I have been advised that family cases where there was disagreement between experts were meant to have been reviewed.. mine wasnt

Firstly in response to Edam. It was the Adoption Agency! It appears that I was asking too many questions and they not only sent coppies of my letters to the AP's but also a copy of their reply. It got to the point where I needed a specific bit of information in writing from them. So I wrote a very clear letter and got no answer. I got my MP to write on my behalf and he not only got a letter saying he was not entitled to the information from the Adoption Agency, but also from the Local Authority. I then got a letter from the L.A. saying that I was breaking the order by involving my M.P.
I am Disgusted that a child can be adopted by a well known adoption agency, however, they not only send a copy of all my correspondence, to the AP's so nothing is confidential. But they have stated that they do not offer support or guidance to the parents who have had their children adopted (Birth Parents) but they do offer support, past the age of the adoptee being 18, to both the adopted child and the Adoptive Parents (AP's). I was informed that if I wanted support then I should speak to someone at my Local Authority, however I can not mention the proceeding as I am 'gagged! I went to the Local Authority where I live now and asked to speak to the 'Post Adoption Counsellor'. Apparently all local Authorities are supposed to have one...well they found a Social Worker, all I could tell her was that I was a 'Birth Mother who had had my children taken away and adopted' I could not tell her why, when or anything apart from the fact that it was not by 'this Local Authority' Her Advice, go back and speak to the Local Authority who took my children and ask to speak to their Post Adoption Counsellor, over 200 miles away. I can not speak to the Adoption Agency, the Local Authority or even a private counsellor (which I did do and broke the law!) as I am prohibitted from telling anyone about the case. I do not mean to sound selfish but to have your two children taken away, be cleared by a Criminal Court, with 'No Case to answer' and yet you are still deemed guilty. The loss of two children and the knowledge that they are calling someone else Mummy and Daddy is sometimes very hard to take. Not knowing what they have been told as to why they have been adopted and know that they may well grow up hating you and believing that you tried to harm them. But you, have no rights. You can't talk to anyone and you are left to cope with this alone and you feel ashamed because you know that people know that you have had your children taken and adopted but you can not tell them why, so they imagine all sorts of things and you end up feeling guilty. No one is there for the Birth Parents, not then and not now. How are we expected to cope? We no longer matter as they have our children and know that we would be too frightened to have more as they would take them away at birth. What rights and what should the birth parent do? Now we can not even go to our MP's so that is why if you like I am prepared to expose a corrupt system as it has nearly destroyed me and my dh, and I do not know what damage it has done to my children, but in my opinion it was and is wrong.

Awen, in response to your enquirey, I know that I and many other mothers in a similar situation did contact the Local Authority that took away their children and we have all got letters back saying that our cases do not fall withing Margaret Hodge's remit. My MP did write to the Local Authority explaining why my case did fall within her remit, in fact you could not have had a 'closer fit'. However they still refused to review it and would not reply to my MP and sent me a letter saying that I should not have involved him and they could not send him the details that he requested due to the 'gagging order' and perhaps I would explain this to my MP!
I know of no one who has had teir case reviewed by the local authority if it just involved the Family Division of the Civil Courts. I would be interested to know if their has been a review of anycase with a positive outcome, which has not involved the criminal courts but the Civil Courts and therefore no ones 'liberty' has been taken away or false accusations of Murder, just inferrences in the Family Courts of 'Attempted Murder' and that 'The Mother will certainly injure or try and kill the child if returned' Spoken by Meadow's.
My MP's final bit of advice to me was go and see a solicitor!

Message withdrawn

The idea of the 'gagging order' Yutgirl is to 'protect the child' I guess from being identified, hence no details about any part of what happened inside the court can be mentioned. I guess they realised that if the press got one small bit of info it would not be long before they could work out who and what had gone on, so all Family Division Civil Cases are 'gagged' except in very exceptional circumstances as in March of this year when two mothers went to the RCJ to apply for the right to appeal, they were high profile, due to the fact that Meadow's and then Southall had just been exposed and Angela Cannings released, but the press were given very strict guidlines. I know the name of the mother, but I would bet that no one else does on mumsnet. I agree that a child should be protected but by me talking, in confidence to a counsellor how could that hurt? I had to pay for all my counselling as I was not entitled to it on the NHS as I was not even allowed to talk to my GP. I am lucky that she knew, she went to the case conferences and she was on my side and thought and was told I would get my children back. Hence the Plaintiffs accepted her Affidavit, she was not called to give evidence and was told to go on holiday as she would not be needed. When it became apparent that she was needed it was too late, the L.A. had told her yo go as had my own solicitors!
Sorry I have gone on Yurtgirl, I am very sorry but the fact is I am only one mother that this has happened to, their are hundreds if not thousands and we are all frightened.
For me though the final straw has been the adoption of the little girl shown on the Real Story. Despite all the evidence they still lost their right of appeal and their dd. No one is there for them and as Muslims they have been seen to bring dishonour on the family and by not having children they are also considered outcasts. Who is there to help and support them? I really believed that this time someone would win, and they would keep their daughter with all the proof that they had and media attention, but before the case went back to court a L.A. Spokesman said that they hoped to find adoptive parents for the dd in Jan05. It is as if the decission had already been made. That is how I felt when I went into the court I had lost before I walked through the door.

I have to wonder if they really do care about the children they remove, we know that they don't care about the birth parents. It has been suggested that it is a way for the L.A. to fill their adoption quotas with nice desirable babies or children under 3. I wonder?

Message withdrawn

Yurtgirl your dh is correct I think in some ways as this has been mentioned to me, but I have to look into it further.

I will let you know if I find anything out, Thank you.

So you cant talk to anyone? at all? not even a priest (if you were catholic)?

I am not allowed to talk to anyone except to instruct a solicitor with regards to anything 'outstanding'.
I had never thought of a preist, but I am not Catholic, but I do know that Doctor patient confidentiality is 'void'. So I assume I would not allowed to be able to talk to a preist, but what could a preist do...he can't break the seal of the confessional to help, and could it be classed as a sin that needs confessing to. I really do not know about that, but I was told no one except a solicitor.

Bunglie - anyone can talk to a priest regardless of faith. I cant see how it could be construed as a confession but merely "offloading" some of the pressures and strains of having to keep all this in. Anyway, I cant see what redress there would be as a priest wont take notes and he wont even know your name necessarily - may be worth thinking about.

Incidentally, I found Leigh Day on the internet - they sound quite clued up

Jampots, for reasons that I know that the AP's are reading this as are the 'authorities' I do not want to put out too much info and get myself into trouble.

However, you are spot on, Leigh Day have a whole dept. devoted to Human Rights and I would only know that if I had may have contacted them. I am not saying that I have!! But great minds think alike, Thank you. Sorry it is a bit criptic.

bunglie, thank you for asking, our christmas was a very quiet one.

Awen, I feel for you and many other families in the same position as you. our case was refused review also and Im not 100% sure but I havent heard of a case yet that has been, or where the children have been returned home...

Jampots, Bunglie..... Dito... and they are very impresive...

Glad all is alright IKNT. I have an email to send you, but it might go in the morning now...sorry.

HAPPY NEW YEAR by the way

Message withdrawn

Thanks Inngogneetoe. My situation is thank fully much improved, however the fact that it was a major balls up and shouldnt of ever happened remains.

Bunglie, hugs to you. Reason for asking is i had call from reporter from bbc. She was going to call me again re possibility of telling my story but they would change all places and names and areas to protect. Very frightened that it would mean losing my ds all over again tho.

Me and ds had a fab christmas. Missing him now tho, even tho i get lots more of him it is still hard when he goes. I dont know how i coped this time last year let alone 18 months ago. I have no idea where the strength comes from but you have it Bunglie and you will get thro.

I wanted to let you know that ex-p has asked me yto have ds 4 3 solid weeks next month incl b-day. I of course jumped at it. Have been lucky enough of late to have aprrox 50% of time sometimes more sometimes a little less.

Regarding the human rights issue, my solicitor tried that one originally and they argued that the childs rights superseded any rights, including the right to family life.

Yurtgirl, I mean my children's AP's.

AWEN, is the Reporters name Claire Gibson? If so send email To Janh and let her have a contact address for you. You can open up a hotmail, Yahoo or msn account using anyname, I have one for Bunglie, so I can email without giving my name away. But if this is the case, Janh is very discrete and will pass along your email address to me, so I will not know who you are, but I do have some info. that could be of help.

Unfortunately yes, you would be breaking the law, as would the reporter. There has not been a case of a mother imprisoned bvut there have been cases of reporters being imprisoned, and often for not giving up their sources. You could be fined though and there are a lot of things to bare in mind and I feel I need to give you a few more details if you want to go down this road. It is a very brave thing for you to do. Have you thought though of the repucussions, at the moment you have contact and it looks really hopeful that this is being extended and it is unsupervised. You are I have to say very lucky, I of all people would never stop anyone from going public if they wanted to, but it has to be thought through and done properly. I would urge as many mothers as possible to tell their stories but they must put their needs first and the needs of their family. I am sure that you have thought all of this through but please if you do want to go public then contact me first via Janh, her email address is holden_jan@hotmail(dot)com.
Awen may I be nosey and ask how this reporter got your name and contact details, because if you are, as I said seriously considering this then you must be very careful.
I wish you all the best in anycase and it is great news that you will have your ds for his birthday. I am very happy for you.

I have posted this on the MAMA DVD thread but thought that I would also share it with you here.

I thought that you may like to know that I got an email from Amy Sommer yesterday, she is sending out my order but I sent her a link to this thread so that she could read what you all thought. I have sent her an email and corrected her that the mums on mumsnet, with the exception of a very few of us (6-7 I think) have never been accused of MSbP and that the comments came from ordinary mums.
Her email is as follows;

"It is an honor to get feedback such as that below from those who have been through the hell of MSbP. Nonny has uncovered some truly horrifying information. As mothers and filmmakers we too are horrified. Sadly, there are many types of child abuse which occur in a variety of circumstances and settings - there is really no cause to make up a new form of it especially when the 'diagnosis' is based on such sloppy science. It seems to me that those who are supposed to be in charge of protecting our children from abuse are in fact creating many new victims of it - only these children are abused by a system that is more concerned with finding blame than good science.

It is comforting to know that the film is doing some good.The DVDs will be in the post tomorrow - it is a holiday here today. Thank you."

I thought that it was really nice that she took the time to read your comments and reply. I think that if this is one way that I can help people see what has been happening then it would be great if you have not already, or have not seen the MAMA DVD emailed an address to Janh.
In view of the past problems of privacy I am quite happy for you just to email her an address. You do not have to put your Mumsnet Username, so your identity remains secret, and the P.O. will deliver with just an address. I do not want you to feel compromised in anyway as I have no way of knowing who you are, (unless you tell me!) and I would rather you kept your anonymity but still saw this DVD as I do feel that every parent should be aware.

Many thanks for all of your support, you have been great.

Finally I would like to sneak in the bottom her a HAPPY BIRTHDAY to someone very special.

Thinking about you today Bunglie xxxx

Message withdrawn

Bunglie - you are doing a great job! It's great that you loan out the dvd for free. I have been passing the dvd around and hope it helps some way in letting people know what is happening. I can't do much just now - waiting for the darling granddaughter to be born - (all is well by the way - anytime now) Hope you know you have our full support and my thoughts are with you. Very Best wishes - sobeit

Message withdrawn

Yurtgirl and all others, thank you for your kind words. Please don't get upset Yurtgirl, I don't want any one to be upset, maybe angry at the system but I would hate to think I was causing distress to any one.

Sobeit, you are doing a great job. THANK YOU. I can't wait, I want you to be a Grand-mother now! Your dd, I hope she is not too uncomfortable and getting lots of advice from the other threads, but I think she has a great mum who will be there for her every step of the way. I am so very happy that the two of you now have this good relationship. It must have taken 'work' from both of you and it is great that soon there will be another new life in this world, and I know that it is already in 'loving arms'. I am excited for both of you and I do hope that your dd has a good labour etc. I will want all the details!! But Please tell her that Bunglie says 'Put your feet up, take it easy and take this chance to be pampered by all and that I send her my best wishes'