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MSbP, Lost Mothers 4

358 replies

Bunglie · 16/10/2004 12:22

I thought it was about time we had a new thread...I felt it might be better to keep the same thread name, but I want to make it clear that it is for ALL mothers who have been seperated or lost children for what ever reason. You do not have to be accused of anything to post here, we would also be grateful if anyone comes across any articles and could just post a link to them here, so we can keep up with the news! I myself seem to miss it all, and if it were not for Mnetters posting links I would still be 'in the dark' about a lot of things. So Thankyou to all of those who have supported us.

I myself feel very privilidged to be part of such a wonderful group of mums, who have shown me nothing but support. It is 10 months ago that I first 'stumbled' across Mnet. I come here when I feel down, or need cheering up, for help and advice. I know of 5 mums who have posted on this thread due to 'false accusations' but I also am aware that there are some mums out there who read it for support and information but do not feel able to post, due to the 'gagging orders' they have placed on them.

I chose a story at 'random' but asked the person who posted it if I can repeat it here,and I feel that it highlights what so many mother's have gone through.

I would hate to think that we are a 'clique' in the world of Mumsnet because we rely on all of the mumsnetters for their help and because of that I hope that no one feels excluded from posting and that you will continue to help us as you have done in the past.

Love Bunglie XX

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MarsLady · 02/01/2005 20:36

Great idea Bunglie. I would love to see it.

Christie · 02/01/2005 20:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LunarSea · 04/01/2005 11:44

Bunglie - did you catch this in the news over the New Year? More evidence that "Meadows Law" is not a law at all....

LunarSea · 04/01/2005 12:14

I'm also having a few thoughts about what the implications of the Freedom of Information act are for you Bunglie? You need a proper legal person (try JudgeFlounce perhaps?) to tell you for sure, but ...

It is possible that you might be able to get access to documents showing how they came to the conclusion that your case did not fit into the review criteria.

While adoption information might well be regarded as personal information relating to your children, and therefore exempt, how the review (or rather the decision not to review) was handled could be information which at least in part you are entitled to, especially as you had direct communication with them relating to this between the time Margaret Hodge made her announcement and the ss deciding that they thought your case wasn't reveiewable. I seem to remember that the review criteria were disputed medical evidence but that the council said that wasn't the case? You might be able to show that they hadn't actually followed the directions for the review properly if you could get hold of the documents explaining how the decision was reached..... (Of course on past performance there's no guarantee that they will actually disclose what they are supposed to, but that's a difffernt story).

There's quite a good guide on The Guardian website about how to apply for access to information.

Bunglie · 04/01/2005 14:41

Thanks LunarSea. No I had not seen that article on Meadows Law etc. I will also check out the Freedom of info act. Thank you.

I am off to start a thread on the MAMA DVD, although I am not sure that many people will be interested enough to actually watch it. I wish that they would as it has the last interview with Meadows on and is right up to date regarding info etc. It follows the stories of 3 sets of parents. One English the other two American. It is one of these parents who started the MAMA website, but this really is a film/documentary that needs to be seen to be believed.

I was also sent another tape by the people I ordered the DVD's from, but it is American and does not play on my video player does anyone know if I can get it changed so I can watch it?

More news very soon.

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Bunglie · 04/01/2005 15:20

Here is a link to the thread if you would like to borrow the MAMA DVD

If you have not seen it please do try and find the time to watch it.

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SofiaAmes · 04/01/2005 23:10

Bunglie, most modern video players will play american ntsc videos. It would probably cost you less to buy a new video player than to get the tape converted. You do also need to have a newish tv too. I think anything in the last 5 years is ok.

JanH · 05/01/2005 09:13

Not quite that much, Sofia! Bunglie, this site (there are lots of others, just google NTSC video conversion or something similar) will convert up to 2 hours for £12, 2-3 for £14.

Bunglie · 05/01/2005 13:31

Thanks Sophia and Janh, I have tried it on a video recorder that is only a year old and it plays beautifully! I have not yet had time to watch it. However Amy Sommer sent it too me for free, and I am sure it will be worth watching.

Janh I will email you...hope you had a good Christmas etc.

Sophia are you home yet? Did you have a good holiday? email will zoom your way as well.

Sobeit, how is your dd?

Awen I am glad to here that you had a good Christmas with your ds, that is great news.

Anyone think it is time we started a 'thread, no.5'?

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sobeit · 05/01/2005 18:06

Hello Bunglie. Dd is fine - she has been having contractions - mostly at night times - I suppose the baby could be here any time now - will keep you posted. Our womens evening has been changed to Wednesdays, will be getting mama dvd back from the ladies next week and let you know what their comments / thoughts are now they have watched it. All the best - sobeit

Bunglie · 07/01/2005 11:50

Copied from the MAMA DVD thread which is HERE
You are all so lovely thank you and a special thank you to Janh for agreeing to extend her P.A. Duties to DVD Librarian.
The first 4 DVD's are going today to the following postcodes.
B91 2LT
PH41 2RP
BB7 2AG
PH1 1NZ
So you know who you are!
They are coming direct from me, so as to save time, but if you could open the Jiffy Bag carefully by cutting along the fold at the top you can re-use it to return the DVD in. (Just stick it together with sellotape!). The only other thing you will find inside the Jiffy bag is a sticky label with Janh's name and address on, so if you can then stick this over the address label and return it to Janh for the next person who would like to borrow it. Oh! If you could also just put a slip of paper with your name and address inside the bag when you return it we can then keep track of who has got them.
I hope that this makes sense.
The only cost I am asking you to make is the return postage to Janh, but if you really can't manage it I will ask Janh to enclose some stamps for you. I would rather that every mother who wants to see this film does as I think it is very important that people are made aware of what is still going on in the secrecy of the civil family courts.
I will copy this posting and put it on the MSbP 4 thread.
Thank you for making the time to watch this. I would be interested to know your comments but I think it would be nice if I could email some of your thoughts on this DVD to the film maker, Amy Sommer, as she kindly sent me an extra copy when I told her why I wanted so many.
Finally Janh has asked that you email her your address instead of using the CAT fascility, and her address is holden_jan@hotmail(dot)com.

Please if you can make time to watch this docu/drama DVD. It is in my opinion the best and fairest production I have ever seen. It portrays all sides of the argument and interviews with Meadow's,Southall and other doctors.

Thank you all again love Bunglie XX

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Bunglie · 11/01/2005 13:24

I feel quite sad this morning and wondered if anyone can confirm what I have just been told.

It appears that Angela Cannings who was wrongly imprisoned for the murder of her baby, and later her husband Steve was accused by the same 'expert' witness after he watched a TV documentary on the case, but this 'expert' never even spoke to hin but made this judgment from watching a TV programme. Quite rightly a complaint was made to the GMC and as we all know the outcome of that, as the expert was Dr Southall.
What has upset me is that it is not cheap to take legal action and the Cannings lost everything, their house the lot, due to legal fees and today it was announced that she will get no compensation for the years she spent falsely imprisoned and seperated from her surviving son and family.
Can it be right that they loose their home and it has cost them money to to right a wrong, that should never have happened? The doctor concerned will have had professional insurance, so he will not be out of pocket, I really do think that she should be compensated as other falsely accused prisoners who are later released are. I think it was the 'Birmingham 4' who got over a million!
She was critisized for selling her story, to be made into a film. Not only do I think that this was very couragous of them as I would have wanted to 'slink off into obscurity', but the money she has been offered for this is only going to be enough for a down payment on a house.
We have a lot to grateful to both Steve and Angela Cannings for, and I feel that they have been through enough. Surely if she was wrongly lockled up and had her family seperated etc. Why should it cost them anything to right a wrong that should never have happened?

Does anyone know any reason why she was denied compensation or seen a story about this and can do a link?

I do apologise to you all, but I am cross, because it should not cost money to right a wrong that should never have happened.

Happier things....any news yet Sobeit....I am sitting on the edge of my chair! Does she have any names picked out? OOh! I can't wait I love happy events.

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JanH · 11/01/2005 13:26

BBC News , Bunglie.

It is outrageous. There is a new thread about it with a v good post from edam, will find that for you in a sec.

JanH · 11/01/2005 13:28

Angela Cannings thread

Bunglie · 11/01/2005 13:32

Thanks Janh...a super P.A. as usual

I should have guesssed that another Mnuetter would say something...I am glad

Oh Thank you sofia....I am not that photogenic but your DS is scrummy!

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Yurtgirl · 11/01/2005 13:55

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 13/01/2005 13:29

Thanks Yurtgirl,
I meant to answer you yesterday!
I am not very good at finding things like that and doing links...
I agree she is an excellent spokesperson as is Penny Mellor. However I personally feel that Angela and Steve Cannings have been through enough. They need to be able to get to know each other again as a family, and be allowed some privacy and peace and quiet. I think people like me owe a lot to her and her husband. Not only did Meadows get her locked up and accused of Murder, when doubts arose, his 'pupil' Southall, then accused her husband. Had I have been him I would have just been pleased to have my wife back and 'sloped off' into obscurity, but he had the courage to take on Southall and take him to the GMC, as one who has had to sort out papers etc I know it is not an easy process.
They both have my admiration and for them both to have been accused of the tragic death of their son, and then lost everything in legal bills but still stay together, that takes strength.
I think but may be wrong that Sophia and Aloha met her when they went to the Demo at the RCJ back in March. They are probably in a better position to say what kind of person she is as I have never met her.

I am on tenderhooks Sobeit......

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Yurtgirl · 13/01/2005 19:21

Message withdrawn

Bunglie · 14/01/2005 09:53

Thanks Yurtgirl for the link. I do have a radio player thingy so I'm OK

I think it is today that Donna Anthony goes back to the court of appeal, but I do not know much about her case...was it on the news this morning?

Ooh! Sobeit I am getting excited, any news?

IKNT, Did you have a good Christmas and New Year? I have an email to send you.

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sobeit · 16/01/2005 20:22

No news yet Bunglie - dd still getting contractions - will let you know as soon as anything happens - all the best - sobeit

edam · 17/01/2005 09:52

Very interesting (and maybe hopeful?) article:

Families denied justice

If a friend of Lord Falconer can sort out a scandal in the justice system, three cheers for cronyism

Nick Cohen
Sunday January 16, 2005
The Observer

The iron law of all bureaucracies is 'first we protect ourselves'. In an ideal world they would look to free themselves from scrutiny by operating under the cover of secrecy. They would strive to deflect criticism by maintaining the pretence that it was in the public interest to operate in absolute privacy.

If they could go further they would then make a breach of their secrecy a crime punishable with all penalties up to and including imprisonment. In an ideal world all bureaucracies would want to achieve the state of perfect irresponsibility achieved by the Family Division of the High Court.

I know it's only January and it's rash to make predictions, but last week there was a strong contender for the award for phoniest media commotion of the year when Lord Falconer, the Lord Chancellor, announced that he wanted to let a little air into the system by appointing an old friend, Sir Mark Potter, as the new president of the Family Division.

The cry of 'cronyism' was yowled across Fleet Street. Shocked journalists discovered that Sir Mark had no experience of family law. They reported that Dame Elizabeth Butler-Sloss, the retiring president, had recommended that an insider be given the job, and Her Ladyship's wishes had been ignored. It wasn't only Dame Elizabeth who was upset. Other family judges resented the appointment and were furious that the job hadn't gone to one of their own.

The charge-sheet lengthened as the outrage grew, and no one stopped to wonder who in their right mind would want to keep the courts the way they are.

If Charles Dickens were around today, he'd be writing The Family Division. You might think that as a British citizen you are innocent until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt. And so you are when you are charged with a criminal offence.

But if you are ever unlucky enough to be faced with the prospect of having your child taken into care - a far worse punishment than a jail term for most parents - you will find that the state need only prove that you are guilty on the balance of probabilities.

You might think that it's a basic tradition of the English law that justice must not only be done but be seen to be done and that secret justice is no justice at all. Not so in the Family Division. Enter into its courts and you enter a British Guantanamo where basic traditions no longer apply.

Like the sexist police officer who will arrest the thug assaulting a stranger in the street but dismiss a case of wife-beating as 'just a domestic', the law applies lower and shabbier standards to families than criminals.

It's not merely that the cases are held in secret. Nothing about them - court papers, expert reports, statements from witnesses - can be made public without the permission of the court. The inevitable consequence of secrecy is conspiracy theory. The victims of the system see scheming cabals everywhere. Fathers 4 Justice may be an unpleasant group whose members destroy a plausible case with their misogyny and violence. But when they complain about a feminist plot to make sure that the system is 'stuffed from head to toe with ideological dinosaurs who believe that fathers are dispensable' it's possible to feel a touch of sympathy for them.

Why shouldn't they believe that justice is a racket when the checks and balances aren't there?

Far worse than the conspiracy theorists without are the fantasists within. Like all closed systems, family law is prone to attacks of collective mania. Delusions sweep the minds of otherwise sane men and women because there are no sceptical outsiders to bring them up short. In the 1980s and 1990s, the modern witch-crazes of satanic and ritual abuse swept through social service departments and the courts. They died down only to be replaced by Munchausen's syndrome by proxy, an impressively difficult name for a criminally-vague theory, which purported to explain otherwise inexplicable deaths and injuries by asserting that parents were seeking attention by harming their children.

After the scandalous miscarriages of justice against Sally Clark, Angela Cannings and Trupti Patel, Munchausen's syndrome by proxy should have been finished. But a list of 40 cases produced by the Telegraph found that parents were still suffering in the Family Division courts. Readers said that when their children had accidents or brittle bones or undiagnosed illnesses they were accused of shaking them, hitting them or seeking attention in the Munchausen manner. One case involved a couple in Essex who had taken the baby to hospital because he had a bump on his head. They were accused of attacking him. They managed to find medical evidence which proved their innocence, but it was too late: the boy had been adopted. No appeal. No redress. The child was lost.

I'd love to be able to check out the story. But anyone who gave me information would be in contempt of court - and I'd be in contempt for seeking answers.

One story I can tell you about is that of Mrs B. In all seriousness and solemnity she was accused of administering 'some unidentified infected substance' which caused her daughter to have 'potentially life-threatening' fits in a Kent hospital. The mother was branded as yet another Munchausen attention-seeker and had her daughter taken from her. Sarah Harman, the mother's solicitor, was furious, and you can't blame her for losing her temper. Even the tamest lawyer would rage that the Family Division was off with the fairies again if she saw a client lose a child for unspecific and uncontestable charge of administering some unidentified infected substance.

She saw the chance to act when Sir Roy Meadow, the man who coined the term Munchausen's syndrome by proxy, was discredited. Harriet Harman, the solicitor general, announced an inquiry into Munchausen cases, and, as luck would have it, Sarah was Harriet's sister. She sent her details of the case, and Harriet Harman passed them onto Margaret Hodge. Mother and solicitor also spoke to journalists without identifying the child.

For breaking the omertá of the Family Division, Sarah Harman was hauled before a Family Division judge, Mr Justice Munby. He ruled that the passing of details of the case to Harriet Harman and Margaret Hodge were contempts of court. He said she was guilty of 'suppres sio veri and suggestio falsi', which is fighting talk even for non-Latin speakers, and she now faces potentially ruinous disciplinary action.

Munby's ruling may, however, turn out to be double-edged: one of those judgments which is fine in theory but preposterous in practice. Ever since secrecy was imposed on the family courts in 1960, councillors and MPs have found that they can't do their democratic duty and check out their constituents' stories of heart-rending abuses of power.

The most notorious incident was during the Rochdale witch craze when children were dragged from their homes by social workers convinced they had uncovered a coven of Lancashire devil worshippers. Parents went to their councillors, who could do nothing because they had been warned that it was illegal to ask what was going on.

What Munby has done is take the absurdity to a new level. His ruling meant that it was a contempt of court to tell the solicitor general, who is responsible for the honest functioning of the legal system, and the Minister for Children, who is responsible for the welfare of children, about an alleged miscarriage of justice involving a child.

Before readers complain that social workers have a terrible job and are damned if they do intervene and damned if they don't, I must say that I agree. I should add too that family judges are good men and women who are asked to make decisions which can't possibly satisfy everyone. For all that, a rotten system can corrupt, and cheeringly there are signs everywhere that its rottenness is being noticed. Sarah Harman is pointing out that Canada and Australia operate open courts while protecting the welfare of the child. They stick by principles of English law, which English judges have abandoned. MPs on the Commons Constitutional Affairs Committee are getting ready to recommend greater openness and even Butler-Sloss and Munby are accepting that reform is needed.

If to make reform work Lord Falconer has to parachute in a crony, well three cheers for cronyism. Let's have more of it. If Dame Elizabeth doesn't like it, that's good. If Family Division judges are resentful, that's better. We should urge Lord Falconer to cram the bench with lawyers who haven't been contaminated by decades of secrecy. If he runs out of legal cronies, there's always his milkman, postman, lady who does and teenage children. Anything and anyone will be better than the status quo.

MamaMaiasaura · 17/01/2005 12:02

I have been told that the case of child on real story who was removed from parents following 'fits' has had its appeal and has not been returned to the family because the courts still feel there is a chance of the mother harming the child.

Bunglie · 17/01/2005 13:58

Thanks Edam, that article is full of interesting and as you say hopeful 'stuff' Let us hope that someone will sit up and listen.
Unfortunately it is true, recently I have been 'reprimanded' for contacting my MP. I had been told that an MP had something called 'Privilidge' and I was allowed to discuss my case with either my MP or another solicitor. That is not the case. Not even your Mp is allowed to enquire, on your behalf with regards to anything relating to the removal and adoption of your children. If you can not even talk to your MP, in my opinion the last line of enquirey when you have hit a brick wall and no one will answer your letters.
The whole system does need overhauling and as the article says it works in Canada and Australia and the child is still protected, why can it not work here?
I think in any system which can not be 'scrutenised and is beyond being 'policed' corruption will occur. Had Parents been able to speak out 15 years ago then I do not believe that Meadow's and others would have been able to 'get away' with this ludicrous label and many children would have been spared the trauma of being adopted and parents the loss of a child or children that they have brought into this world and loved. There only crime being that they should concern for their childs health and the doctors could not give them an answer as to the cause, the result being that the parents, usually the mother was blamed and in a secret system of the Family Courts that child can be lost to them forever. I do not believe that the courts were putting the 'Best interests of the child first' but 'playing it safe' to a new syndrome that has no defence. The trauma that these children go through I think is underestimated and to be removed from a loving careing family and placed with strangers (quite often several diifferent foster homes) before they are finally adopted. How can that trauma be measured, how can these children not be emotionally affected?
I am not saying that child abuse does not exist, sadly it does, but they should call it by name, smothering, poisoning, battering etc, not some obscure syndrome like MSbP that you can not ever win against.
The actions of Meadow's et al only came to light because the cases of Cannings, Patel and Clarke all occurred in the criminal courts, not the Family division of the Civil Courts. Who know how long it will go on for? To date there has not been an appeal of an adoption order made on the grounds that the mother had MSbP in the Family Courts.
Awen- The Mother in the BBC1 Programme the Real Story did not even get as far as the appeal stage, it was judged that she did not have a right of appeal. I think I am correct there, if I am not then someone please correct me.

Again I am sorry this is so long but the article did hit on all the ppoints that I have been argueing/fighting for and that is that the Civil Courts of the Family Dibvision should be open to scrutiny and the use of MSbP must stop as a reason to seperate loving parents from their children. Adoption is final, and when there is no right of appeal and no one you can complain to what do you do. Your world has gone, your children and although you may know that you are innocent, no one else does and you can not even tell your best friend. At one point, where we used to live the local gossip-mongers started saying that we had had our children taken away because my husband sexually abused them. How do you counteract an accusation like that when you can not tell them what really happened.
It is a sad situation that has to stop in my opinion, but as I have said before, just by posting on here I am breaking the law

If you think that the system is wrong I ask you to watch the MAMA dvd which you can borrow for free and to write to your MP and Margaret Hodge.
Thanks Edam. I hope things are going well with you Awen and I am waiting in anticipation Sobeit, I think I must be almost as excited as you!

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jampots · 17/01/2005 14:03

I will write to my local MP this week Bunglie

Bunglie · 17/01/2005 14:05

Just giving you another link to the MAMA DVD thread. Click Here!

Please do try and watch it and all you need do is email Janh you address, not even your mumsnet talk name or your name if you do not want to. The postman will deliver it with just an address. I would rather people kept their anonymity but watched this DVD as it has the facts and I believe that every parent should see this.

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