Transgender pupil wins right to wear girls uniform

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

metro.co.uk/2016/10/18/transgender-pupil-wins-fight-to-wear-girls-school-uniform-6198932/#mv-a

I think it is absolutely right that a school pupil of whichever sex can wear the traditional uniform of either sex.

However, I am slightly more concerned that this individual has also been granted the right to use toilet and changing facilities of the opposite sex - this bothers me as these areas are sex segregated for good reason

This is in the UK btw.

And just to repeat - ANYONE can put a dress on and claim to be transgender.

That is the danger.

I'm not within my rights to demand to see a doctors note from the parent of a MTF who wants to sleep with my Guides, nor from a MTF adult Leader who wants to share a room with me.

I think that horse has already bolted. We've lost not knowing we were at war.

Is it not the case then that Transgender people need their own space? If gender is a social construct, or is that segregation? Why is it women having to accept and compromise? We've not got equality as a gender, and now we're expected to compromise more? Are we going to get to a point where transgender women are more employable because are less likely to take time off to have children? So will be able to sustain their pay levels, widening the earnings inequality gulf that women already have to deal with?

And what about competition in schools? PE and sports? If my 14 yo DS wanted to be treated as a girl, he'd blow them all out of the water. There would be no point in the girls competing. Physically there is no comparison. My girls wouldn't be able to compete with their brothers at the same age. We've just seen a phenomenal Olympics, real role models for girls at last, but what would be the point if you can't compete because physically a transgender woman will have, for example, a longer stride, or be taller, or stronger?

Hormones can only take you so far.

When going to the loo a while ago there were three toilets. One was marked male, the second female, while the third had the initials LGTBiTg. After looking at it blankly for quite a while it finally dawned on me what the initials stood for. Duh!

Maybe schools should be doing the same thing, and allocating a smaller room somewhere for changing. Perhaps all new schools should be designed for this type of thing.

I do think there is a danger for trans women in male toilets, sadly. But what MNers who appear to be ' transphobic'are saying is that an increasing number of trans women are not necessarily on any kind of treatment at all, and there is no way of differentiating SOME of them from a predatory man claiming he is a woman in order to access women's spaces. The obvious solution for me is a third bathroom/changing space, otherwise there is literally no point in having separate spaces. We don't need to separate anything at all by 'gender'. We occasionally need to separate by biological sex.

The problem is that some trans people don't want to accept using a 3rd toilet/changing room, and some of those people are taking legal action to ensure that they can use the facilities of the opposite sex. This results in loss of privacy for others, who are then accused of transphobia if they question this.

I really don't get this "assigned at birth" thing. Doctors or midwives don't pull a baby's sex out of a hat. They look at a newborn's genitals and say male or female. Nobody is "assigning" a baby anything, they are simply stating the biological facts.

Now if later on a male decides he wants to wear dresses and be referred to as Matilda or a female wants to wear suits, call herself Bob and take up some predominantly male sport then I have no problem with that.

But it does not change their biological sex.

I know, ageingrunner, and tbh I feel for them, as I know if I felt so removed from my own sex I would probably want the same as they do. It must be very difficult. But biological reality doesn't change because you wish it so.

I think the accusations of transphobia come from a good place too - we all want to be accepting and non prejudiced. Somehow along the way trans rights have become conflated with gay rights and many people just want to be on the right side of that and be accepting.

The very fact people are talking on this thread about posters hating transgender people or being frightened of penises just goes to show that the discussion/argument/war-whatever you want to call it- is lost. And women have lost it. Years of struggle for female only spaces and against male entitlement gone in a matter of months. And, cunningly, it's been made impossible to question the terms of the loss, or to try to mitigate the damage to women because anything but complete acceptance or capitulation is "phobia" or "hate" or exactly the same as racism.

"The biggest worry was where to find a store that sold size 12, 6 inch heels that could support the weight of a 7' tall person"

Because nothing says "woman" quite so clearly as 6in heels................

it wouldnt bother me if my dd had a transgender person, or indeed a male person using a toilet cubical next to her, or if there was a transgender person using the same changing room, as long as there were cubicles, and if there werent cubicles, id wonder why, as id hate to get undressed in front of other people no matter what their gender is.

And, cunningly, it's been made impossible to question the terms of the loss, or to try to mitigate the damage

Also by redefining women and female to include some males. Which completely erases women and statistics pertaining to women etc.

we havent had years of struggle for female only spaces. Women werent forced to used mens bathrooms ever. This was never part of the battle for womens rights

it wouldnt bother me if my dd had a transgender person, or indeed a male person using a toilet cubical next to her, or if there was a transgender person using the same changing room

I don't think I'm alone in this, but when I was at school dealing with periods was mortifying. Waiting until the toilets were empty before you dated to unwrap a total/room because the crinkly noise would give away that you were on your period. I can only imagine how much worse that anxiety would be if boys were also allowed.

There is also the issue that many many women are uncomfortable being around men they do not know in enclosed spaces due to prior abuse.

Branleuse

For example:

www.pri.org/stories/2016-05-12/india-access-toilets-remains-huge-problem-worst-all-women-and-girls

Of course the UK is not rural India, but surely you can see what the long-term impact of women feeling uncomfortable using toilets in public places/workplaces/schools would be.

"we havent had years of struggle for female only spaces. Women werent forced to used mens bathrooms ever. This was never part of the battle for womens rights"

Notice I said "spaces"? Not "bathrooms"?

Notice I said "spaces"? Not "bathrooms"?

Except in your second sentence...

So you don't think female.only spaces especially where women may feel particularly vulnerable is a good idea?

What happened to the petition? Anyone know?

This one?

www.change.org/p/theresa-may-mp-a-review-of-how-laws-based-on-gender-identity-conflict-with-laws-based-on-biological-sex

Just over 500 now, not really gaining much traction as so many are too scared to share.

Thanks Itsall. I'm not on social media, just look at twitter.

I am increasing thinking that there has been a silent coup and we are just seeing the consequences of it now.

I do not believe that the risks to women from transgender people are any greater than the risks to women from cis-women. Its not as if women are all nice to each other and never violent. I think we are hearing about the odd bloody case in the news and catastrophising that its everywhere and all our children are going to be wanting sex changes and will be attacked by transgenders. Its bloody ridiculous. I know and have known various transgender people and above all they want to be left the fuck alone and to pass and to be able to live their lives, with some semblance of happiness in their bodies and with who they are

I do not believe that the risks to women from transgender people are any greater than the risks to women from cis-women.

At a population level men are more violent than women, studies have shown that MtT offend at the same rate as men, not women.

Branleuse

it wouldnt bother me if my dd had a transgender person, or indeed a male person using a toilet cubical next to her,

So. It would bother YOU but what about your DD?
You cant speak for all women.
If some women are uncomfortable or feel unsafe with males in females spaces then that should be enough not to allow it.

There are good and valud reasons for female only spaces. Why the hell should they be overlooked just because a man demands it?

I think really changing rooms and toilets now days should be unisex but have private stalls and individual sized changing rooms for people who want privacy. Then no one has to declare what gender they are but people who want privacy from people not of their own gender still get it.

The individual stalls would need floor to ceiling walls and doors to ensure no mobile phones being used to film under them. And before anyone says, I'm not accusing trans people of doing this, but there would be some men who would take advantage.