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News

Transgender pupil wins right to wear girls uniform

269 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/10/2016 21:34

metro.co.uk/2016/10/18/transgender-pupil-wins-fight-to-wear-girls-school-uniform-6198932/#mv-a

I think it is absolutely right that a school pupil of whichever sex can wear the traditional uniform of either sex.

However, I am slightly more concerned that this individual has also been granted the right to use toilet and changing facilities of the opposite sex - this bothers me as these areas are sex segregated for good reason Sad

This is in the UK btw.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 18/10/2016 23:47

What makes Lily thinks that is ok when physically their body is not the same
Enthusiasm

But isn't that awfully like saying a disabled person, or a black person should use different facilities? Their bodies are different too.

Heratno7
I read the guidance as that the members who weren't MtT could also request use of seperate facilities if they felt uncomfortable - am I wrong?

OP posts:
EnthusiasmDisturbed · 19/10/2016 00:14

No because Lily's sex is different and we seperate the sexes for many different reasons one being so we feel more comfortable. Feeling the need for privacy against the opposites sex is one that we should all be entitled to and should expect

Having a disability or being from a different racial background the separation would be down to prejudice nothing to do with privacy or dignity

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 19/10/2016 00:15

And how is a black persons body different to a white persons body. We all come in very different shapes and sizes. The only difference is colour of skin

confuugled1 · 19/10/2016 00:17

Must admit when I read the article I did have lots of conflucting views as if they are genuine then theyre dealing with a lot but I also wouldn't want a dd to have to feel unsafe ar school or guides etc.

However on seeing the picture of him in a skirt I did think that I woukd love to know what the official school uniform is - because there aren't many schools that allow skirts quite so short... So I hope that if the uniform states a knee length skirt or below the knee or whatever then that is enforced....

This is slightly because I used to work with a mtf transgender person about 20 years ago - different department but same floor so using same facilities. They were fine - and it can't have been easy to transition then. But there was a dress code for women (boring office wear, suits or smart outfits basically, it was a fairly conservative place) and the transgender person used to shout discrimination very loudly when anybody tried to talk to him about his outfits - which were all mini skirts, crop tops, sparkly, ready to walj into a nightclub and completely inappropriate for boring office wear. The fact thst if any of the rest of us had turned up like that we'd have been told to come back in something more suitable was completely ignored - he felt that it was his right to wear whatever clothes he wanted to in order to express his female side and it was discrimatory not to let him do what he wanted and that we were being boring and not properly female by wearing such dull officewear, whereas he knew much better than we did what female style was and he was going to wear it. Which made a lot of people who otherwise had no issue with him feel rather insulted and annoyed.

And apologies I've probably got all my pronouns wrong, difficult to keep track and keep clear.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/10/2016 00:31

We all come in very different shapes and sizes.

Exactly, and just because someone has a penis doesn't mean they aren't female

OP posts:
Crankycunt · 19/10/2016 01:01

I remember a girl who started to transition into a boy. Fine fair enough.

She was at a prestigious girls school, she has been accepted as a boy which is fine. I commented that the school is no longer a girls school and should admit other boys, or their classmates and teachers didn't really think that she was a he.

I was ripped to shreds for it. Where is it going to end?

Redrocketship · 19/10/2016 01:15

"She was at a prestigious girls school, she has been accepted as a boy which is fine. I commented that the school is no longer a girls school and should admit other boys, or their classmates and teachers didn't really think that she was a he"

Well that is the logical conclusion of the "a person is whatever sex they say they are even if they demonstrably aren't" argument Funny how they got angry about you pointing it out!

OlennasWimple · 19/10/2016 01:25

agingrunner - "these people"? It's possible to make a point about being concerned about the direction of travel without being so rude and offensive

OlennasWimple · 19/10/2016 01:35

The Huff Post has a few more interesting details on the story, including the fact that her family had concerns about her transitioning

worriedabouthimagain · 19/10/2016 01:36

Not wanting a fight honestly but
Was is wrong with lily using the toilet ? Why do you think it's wrong ? My view is that most of the comments hers are illegal and mumsnet really needs to do something about all this hate towards trans people. I used to work somewhere where everywhere was shared including the toilets there was no rapes or anything like that!

NapQueen · 19/10/2016 01:41

Imo there is no place for penises in girls changing rooms; on girls sleepovers or in girls boarding schools. Just like they have no place in women's prisons, in women only swim classes etc.

Anyone can wear whatever the fuck they like, be called Sally or Simon, and identify as whatever "state of mind" they choose. But my first paragraph stands.

worriedabouthimagain · 19/10/2016 01:48

But if there is surgery no penis is it OK then? If not why

SofiaAmes · 19/10/2016 01:49

There is a lot of fear mongering and ignorance going on here. It would behoove some of you to go out and meet some trans kids and then maybe you wouldn't be so afraid and worried about things that just aren't real. Some of the fears sound like the things that people said when they racially integrated the schools in the USA in the 60's.

My ds has a friend who is transgender MaleToFemale (MTF) and just recently turned 18. She came to stay with us and shared a bedroom with Ds (15), but I would have been perfectly happy for her to share a bedroom with dd (13 at the time). She might be anatomically a male, but does not present as male either physically or emotionally. In fact, I think it was one of the most stress-free teenage sleepover experiences I have had recently. The biggest worry was where to find a store that sold size 12, 6 inch heels that could support the weight of a 7' tall person. (Has anyone seen the movie/musical Kinky Boots?)

HermioneWeasley · 19/10/2016 07:03

I know a trans kid thanks

Still think he's gender dysphoric rather than born in the wrong body

And those supporting Lily, you can't think of a single reason why teenage girls, with changing bodies and contending with periods, might not want an 18 year old boy in their loos and changing rooms? Really?

Amalfimamma · 19/10/2016 07:17

But if there is surgery no penis is it OK then? If not why

If there has been surgery then fine, the penis no longer exists but if it's Billy from year 12 who woke up this morning and decided he's a girl and needs to use the girls bathrooms and changing rooms then no, he has a fully functional penis, is not a female (even a MTF who has undergone surgery is not female as dna cannot be changed)

the comments hers are illegal

FFS that's like saying it's racist to ask someone's age.

DollyBarton · 19/10/2016 07:23

I think it's fine and the right decision. Transgender girls and women, and transgender men are just people and don't deserve the aggression and predjudice they always seem to be treated with on mumsnet.

IzzyIsBusy · 19/10/2016 07:27

I have no fear of transgender people.

I just dont want men in female spaces. Especially when the comfort, safety and privacy of those females is disregarded in favour of a male who will never be female.

abbsismyhero · 19/10/2016 07:51

Until surgery is performed they should have there own space a separate cubicle and toilet

No arguments no abuse of the system it removes the "benefits" of someone claiming to be trans for nefarious reasons and gives the genuine cases what is needed while protecting women's/girls rights

ageingrunner · 19/10/2016 08:13

Olenna sorry, please replace 'these people' with 'trans people' in my second post

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 19/10/2016 08:25

No one is here is supporting prejudice against transgender people

What is being said is that female spaces should remain female and that it is perfectly OK to want that and should be expected that no males will share that space

If unisex spaces are provided and want to be used that is fine but no male has the right use female spaces just because they feel they are female

Do female voices not matter

Apparently not

amammabear · 19/10/2016 09:09

I don't understand this fear of penises! They don't have some magical attraction to vaginas that can't be resisted... Has anyone ever heard of a trans person attacking a non trans person in toilets or changing areas?

Personally, I'd rather all toilets etc were unisex, with individual cubicles, what is the harm? I just don't get it.

GerundTheBehemoth · 19/10/2016 09:15

amammabear here are some examples of trans people attacking non-trans people in toilets and changing areas. Warning - it's a bit harrowing.

IzzyIsBusy · 19/10/2016 09:26

I don't understand this fear of penises!

So because i dont want penises in female spaces i therefore fear them Hmm

Or could it be that a female only area should just be a female only area. Simple.
If you allow any man who puts on a dress to declare himself female and use female only spaces you are opening up the doors for all types of men to gain access. This includes sexual predators. Why the fuck should i stand by and allow that to happen!

Heratnumber7 · 19/10/2016 09:31

I reads the guidance as that the members who weren't MtT could also request use of seperate facilities if they felt uncomfortable - am I wrong?

So "normal" girls and women can choose to sleep apart from their mates so that a male dressed up as a female CAN sleep with the rest of this girls?

Well that's Ok then. Fan-bloody-tastic

ageingrunner · 19/10/2016 09:31

I don't want men present when I'm getting changed or using the toilet. Why does their desire to be there suddenly trump mine?
And yes there are many many cases of men attacking women in gender neutral or female spaces, as shown in that YouTube video already linked to.
Also Google target stores in America who changed to mixed changing rooms this year and the number of perverts taking advantage of this is actually staggering.

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