Assaults in Cologne and other European cities part VI

[HelpTheAnimalsFirst]

Thread 6.

Kesstrell,

That isn't true at all. Help said that women should not be wearing hijab at work or in school, that it showed hostility to Western values and that they thought they were better than us.

Even saying that wearing burkha or hijab sows discord is horrible. The claim that it shows they are saying they are not part of society is unpleasant and sad and absolutely not ok.

While free speech allows her to say it, posters supporting statements like this shows the real motives behind the posters of these threads and their objectives in raising the petition.

'Emily is also clearly unaware that many Muslim women are uncomfortable with the burka in particular. The vast majority of Muslim women in this country are of Pakistani heritage, where neither the burka nor the hijab were worn. Both garments are Arabic. The reason they have become more prevalent here is down to a form of cultural imperialism coming from Saudi Arabia, which has been using its vast wealth to flood countries with Muslim populations all over the world with propaganda encouraging them to adopt the extremely conservative Salafist version of the religion (the gentle forms like Sufism are what was common in Pakistan)'.

Being uncomfortable with what someone wears is very different to stating they should not be allowed to wear it and claiming it shows hostility to Western values.

I am stating what help said, not misrepresenting it at all. I think you are trying to reword what she said to making yourselves look less bad for not making a stand about her unpleasant remarks.

Sorry, didn't mean to post that twice. I was trying to add this:

"In 1919, Egyptian women marched on the streets demanding the right to vote; they took off their veils, imported as a cultural tradition from the Ottoman Empire, not a religious edict. The veil then became a relic of the past.

Later, Egyptian President Gamal Abdel-Nasser said in a speech in the early 1960s that, when he sought reconciliation with members of the Muslim Brotherhood group for attempting to assassinate him in 1954, the Supreme Leader of the Brotherhood gave him a list of demands, including, “imposing hijab on Egyptian women.” The audience members didn’t understand what the word hijab meant. When Nasser explained that the Brotherhood wanted Egyptian women to wear a headscarf, the audience members burst out laughing.

As women who grew up in modern Muslim families with theologians, we are trying to reclaim our religion from the prongs of a strict interpretation. Like in our youth, we are witnessing attempts to make this strict ideology the one and only accepted face of Islam. We have seen what the resurgence of political Islam has done to our regions of origin and to our adoptive country."

In other words, it is not "Islamophobic" to criticise hijab.

John Kerry’s liberalism, and the liberalism of millions like him, ignores Chesterton’s warning not to be so open-minded that your brains fall out.

From the Nick Cohen article linked above. Thank you, Carla!

Lale Akgün:

"...the stylization of the headscarf as something that enriches our multicultural society. That is nonsense. Headscarves are a sign of female oppression. Anyone who supports this particular image of women shouldn't be surprised when men in the same community view women who don't wear headscarves as "loose."

My God, LongWayRound, that German/Turkish left-wing politician (who in fact immigrated from Turkey) must secretly be a member of the Nazi far-right!

Emily, could you please alert the German authorities so that they can take Lale Akgün into custody for this outrageous racist language? Don't waste time, act now before she has a chance to speak again.

LongWayRound

'But when religion is politicized and requires political decisions to be made, then that's not something we should just politely accept. This is the point where it interferes in our lives. For example, when I as a mother have to think about whether or not to allow my daughter to be taught by a teacher who wears a headscarf. Do I want my daughter to be exposed to the kind of ideology that says women have to cover themselves up in front of men? If you don't acknowledge that these things are connected, then the young men who grope women on the street could seem like an isolated phenomenon. But they're not; they're part of a bigger problem."

I would absolutely be happy for my daughter to be taught by a woman that wears a symbol of her faith and has religious freedom. I would rather a society where women wear them in the workplace rather than one where they are ripped off their heads in public or forced to work from home because of their choice.

Incidentally as far as covering up sexual violence to avoid stirring up racial tension, the trial of the main alleged offenders in the Rotherham cases has been going on since before Christmas. Not that many people would know, the national press aren't covering it, despite some horrific evidence and the fact that the (Labour) deputy leader of the council has been implicated by several victims, for (amongst other things) being present in brothels where underage girls were pimped out and arranging deals for his relatives not to be prosecuted for involvement in the kidnapping of underage girls.

Funny that...

Emily Will was quoting me with

"You don't know anything about Islam, would like to know more and so don't actually have a clue what you are talking about?
or
You know enough to dismiss Whatabout's comment as 'unsubstantiated'

when you replied

I don't know enough to make generalisations, which can be said for many posters on these threads. The comments were unsubstantiated nonsense. There was nothing to back it up as a truth. That is what unsubstantiated means you see.

You really do need to get more educated about Islam before you make comments like that.
I suggest you do some googling -or read Hefzi's post
what all sects have in common is the attitude towards the Qu'ran as a revealed text: those of you familiar with church speak will know the difference between Christian fundamentalists - that everything in the Bible is literally true - and Christian modernists (that some of the Bible can be explained by treating it as allegory, rather than as literal truth). Obviously, that's a bit of an over-simplification for the purposes of this post, but there isn't a mainstream Islamic preacher, much less a sect, that accepts the Qu'ran for anything other than a revealed text. Because it's revealed, this means nothing may be changed or altered

I also was one who said I really wish women who had a choice wouldn't wear a Burka - because to me it acts as a reminder of the treatment of women under the Taliban and now Daesh - where they HAVE to wear one on fear of being lashed and worse. I see it and I think (probably wrongly) of women's oppression under those states, it makes me angry.
I feel like those women are letting women down, undermining our freedoms - but then I have never had a conversation with someone who was choosing to wear one, to hear their reasoning.
I have with someone wearing the Hijab - it was about being treated with respect etc and although I could see her pov I did disagree with her and told her I view in it in a different light - but even so I am happy she had the choice to wear it.

I think there are two options left to this thread.

One is to stop responding to relentless derailment as the poster clearly intends to continue their crusade until everyone else has given up and left - whilst quoting posters here out of context on their own thread in order to call them racist, which I'm slightly surprised MNHQ are happy with.

The other is to say this thread achieved its aim, post the petition link and move on.

Longwayround, as it "Islamophobic" to say that women wearing it are hostile to Western values and think they are better than the women not wearing it. I don't think women wearing hijab are giving out the message that they are better than me. I think they are making an individual choice.

Backtothenorth, that statement doesn't state that women wearing it are hostile to Western society or thinkng they are better than other Western women, nor does it say that they shouldn't be allowed to wear it at work, which is what help said.

Where did I say anyone should be arrested?

Generally speaking Bill It's pretty standard practice now, even for the most high profile trials, for the media to cover the beginning, somewhere in the middle and the end off a long- running trial. As has been pointed out elsewhere, they simply don't have the resources to send someone to cover each day.

Good work getting a petition going guys. Looking forward to seeing it!

I am also writing to my MP. Have many other people done this? Is it worth putting a few examples on here to help others. I can share my letter if anyone wants a bit of inspiration, but I think it would be best to get a bit of variety here as I'm sure I don't speak for everyone on this board. What do you think?

Yes MP , MEP, German ambassador.

easter. A good idea. I sent my mp one and got a quick, reasonable (ish) response. I used one the llumelaMme had written, way, way back in the thread. I really think we should name and shame those who haven't replied.

Unlucky83

In the post you mentionit was a statement with no evidence IN THAT SENTENCE, therefore unsubstantiated. I don't need to read about Islam to know a sentence with no extending evidence in it, just a simple assertion, is an unsubstantiated statement.

I am not interested in Hefzi's post, I am very sceptical that it represents the millions of Muslims in the world.

Help said she would refuse to speak to someone wearing a burkha. You were all fine with that. End of.

According to journalist Polly Dunbar who wrote an article on marital captivity there are 85 Sharia councils in Britain.

emily

'Backtothenorth, that statement doesn't state that women wearing it are hostile to Western society or thinkng they are better than other Western women, nor does it say that they shouldn't be allowed to wear it at work, which is what help said.

Where did I say anyone should be arrested?'

Well, she has obviously committed a racist hate crime by criticizing the headscarf and those who defend it, so I think a life sentence without parole would be appropriate, don't you? Let's not bother with a trial, either - you might get racists on the jury who agree with her!

Right, well for what it's worth, here is what I have written. Could some other people please share theirs too? Particularly since I raise some issues here that are not covered in this thread.

Mr xxx
House of Commons,
London,
SW1A 0AA

Dear Mr xxx,

I am writing to you because I wish for a more concerted effort from parliament to protect women’s rights and safety.

The New Year’s Eve attacks in Cologne and elsewhere in Europe have raised concerns about the gradual erosion of women’s hard won freedom and equality. This applies both to current UK residents and importantly also to immigrant women and children, who should benefit from the same protections and rights while they are in our country.

I am particularly concerned about group sexual assaults, human sex trafficking, and female genital mutilation, and I would like to see our government taking steps to extend the rights women have fought so hard for to everyone in this country and prevent such things from happening here.

I would like for you to raise the issue in the House of Commons and support any initiatives from other members on this matter.

Clearly there is a moral imperative to take in migrants, for example from war-torn countries such as Syria, and I wish them happiness, respect and safety in building new lives here.

Please note that I am concerned that any measures, no matter how well intentioned, could in practise risk worsening the treatment of people of colour. So I would also ask you when legislating to please consider carefully what inadvertent effects any new laws might have.

Thank you for your time on this matter.

Yours sincerely,

Am I alone in finding Emily's lists of things that it is unacceptable to say quite frightening? (for a democratic society, I mean)

No, you're not alone

Backto, I don't know what you're on about.

Easter great idea. I also used one written as an example way back in the thread and adapted it a little.

Dear MP

The recent incidences of taharrush gamea, or organised mob sex attacks
in Cologne, Stockholm, Helsinki and other cities were deeply shocking. I see the figures for the victims involved are now well over
half a thousand women.

The subsequent media blackout, under-reporting, minimising, victim
blaming and rush to blame anyone but the actual perpetrators has been
still more frightening and insulting to women. I am shocked at the
responses so far by European authorities suggesting that women should
not go out alone and should cover up as well as remaining at arms length.
I fail to understand how any woman assaulted in that mess could have
successfully defended herself against the crowd of multiple men
surrounding her, nor why these victim-blaming and responsibility
shifting strategies are being suggested instead of discussing enforcing
actual law and order and ensuring the safety of 50% of the population.
In the UK it is becoming painfully evident that the government and BBC
do not want to acknowledge or discuss this matter at all.

The implications to hard-won equality laws are far-reaching. It is
horrifying to see such institutions as the BBC and The Guardian
minimising, excusing and covering up such attacks in the name of
peace-keeping and anti-racism and I am still more alarmed to see
Germany's leadership in requiring limitation of freedom of speech on
Facebook and via employers to control this news being spread or
discussed. As Rotherham sadly showed, we have long ignored institutional
sexism in favour of an illogical so-called anti-racist agenda that does
not stand up to facts. The abuse of women (and abuse of LGBT people will
certainly also follow) is being subjugated to a political agenda, it is
indefensible and it must stop.

I urge you to read the concerns and opinions of concerned women of all
religious creeds and colours urgently discussing action: CEOs,
journalists, teachers, policewomen, mothers who are concerned about the
world their daughters will grow up in and what rights and freedoms they
are losing. This is a link to an intelligent and enlightening discussion
on an influential platform.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2547511-Assaults-in-Cologne-and-other-European-cities-part-V?
[1]

May I respectfully request that you address the matter at PMQT on behalf of half of your constituents?

I would like to know the proactive steps the government intend to take
to assure us that our legal rights as women are not being ignored in
this matter and our right to safety and to continue with the freedoms we
have grown up with, equal to men in Europe, will be vigorously protected.

I would like details of any educational, vetting and screening and
other action the government will take, with the understanding that
education, while a wonderful thing, is very likely to alter in any way
lifetime cultural values. I could not be educated out of my belief in
equality for women through a couple of classes and I find it highly
unlikely that it could have the opposite effect on a man with a lifetime
of beliefs and culturally internalised values behind him. With free
movement in Europe I am very concerned that taharrush gamea may easily spread to the UK, will be extremely difficult to police or prevent as a
little research quickly indicates that one central point of the game is
that with very large numbers in a chaotic crowd it is almost impossible to stop or to identify offenders during or afterwards, and is clearly fun
for the participants with lifetime damage for any victim involved. I
would also like to know that any participation in criminal acts such as
Cologne saw on New Years Eve will be vigorously prosecuted in the UK
with the full and impartial force of the law with a strong aim of
deterrence instead of hushed up and excused by discomfort over facing
facts over any particular racial groups involved.

Sadly, I do not need to remind you there are parties who will step
gladly into any void created by government inaction.

Many thanks for your attention. I look forward to hearing from you at
your earliest convenience.

Kind regards

The (very prompt) reply from my MP:

Dear Rumble

Thank you for contacting me about the terrible events targeting women at New Year's festivities in Cologne.

No one should have to go through such a horrific ordeal, but when a sexual crime occurs, women need to know that they will be offered all of the expert advice and support they need to rebuild their lives and that the perpetrator will be put behind bars.

In the UK thanks to the work of the police in conjunction with government, progress is being made with the volume of convictions for sexual offences excluding rape now at the highest level ever.

I deplore the abhorrent acts that took place in Germany and I will pass on all of your concerns.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact me, and please do let me know if I can help with anything else.

Those standpoint articles are excellent - posted by carlajean. Read the Charlie one, half way through the second. Great stuff.

I am not interested in Hefzi's post, I am very sceptical that it represents the millions of Muslims in the world.
emily, by your admission you're not well-informed about Islam (I'm beginning to suspect that you know even less about it than I do). You have to start somewhere if you want to learn, and your attitude does seem a little, er, arrogant.

Just caught up with this, I have been out enjoying my sad little life.

I agree with Rumble lets all ignore posters who are deliberately trying to shut us all up, we have a voice and we will be heard, and get this petition back on track. Well done to all who have contributed.

I am here just to get the point across to the whole world that women will not be silenced, made to stay indoors or accept that we are second class citizens.

Lets show them we mean business!

emily

'Backto, I don't know what you're on about.'

I'm saying that the cultural and religious preferences of migrants are above criticism, that they must trump every other freedom enjoyed by every other group, and that any deviation must be punished by life imprisonment for a first offence, with more severe penalties for repeat offenders. Surely only racists could disagree with these modest proposals?