Assaults in Cologne and other European cities part VI

[HelpTheAnimalsFirst]

Thread 6.

I know Will but the nutty Left are as bad as the Nutty Right.If we can see what's going on here, new readers will too.
(Did you hear the one about Corbyn agreeing to Trident but not the actually missiles.... barking!)

Will
She saved 'prejudiced' and 'bigoted' up specially for me.
That was no blanket bomb.
She also told me, specifically, that I'd been 'unpleasant' to another poster, even though my post was made in good faith.
That was no blanket bomb either.
I'm still inclined to let her posts stand because most people reading them will make their own judgement.

Carla and Polenta
I know what you're saying about not engaging, and I go through phases of letting it all wash over me.
And I haven't lost it since I threw a whole packet of jammy dodgers out of my pram the other evening.

It's like a bloody mozzie buzzing around your head. You try to ignore but every now and then you take a swipe

Bzzzzz Bzzzzzzzz

Posters on this thread are being quoted on here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/in_the_news/2548540-Cologne-attacks-No-Excuses-for-sexual-violence-Campaign?pg=2&order=

I would be happy to close the thread with a link by MNHQ to the petition, a thread has already been started I'm petitions.

*And there is virtual silence on feminism chat about this. A recent thread came and went.

I honestly don't get that.*

I can only speak for myself Ego, but these threads alone have been hard to keep up with and have taken almost all of my online time. It's been hard for me to keep up with this discussion as by the time I catch up, and read everything linked,( which some days has taken several hours) I don't have time to respond, I don't think I've even been on feminism chat since following these threads to be honest, I've been either on this one, or skimming active when I have a few mins on the toilet :) which explains why another thread on the same topic has totally passed me by.

Just because feminists on MN are not speaking about it on feminism chat, it doesn't mean they are not speaking about it all.

will beat I believe Nicky Morgan is Women's Ministry, not Theresa May, but am happy to be corrected.

Emily I am sorry but I have to disagree they have been and are lots of intelligent thoughtful posters on these threads talking about their real experiences in these CULTURES. Taking comments out of context is not helpful to anyone.
This petition is about talking about these issues. And mass immigration. And how they effect women's rights and freedoms in the short and longer term.

You do really need to find out more about Islam - and its misogynistic cultural interpretations - what is actually Islam and what is culture.
You can't say something is 'common sense' with no actual knowledge or evidence to back it up. (Common sense tells me the earth is flat ...hopefully you agree it isn't)
This petition is also about talking about things like those mentioned in your post - if we are too scared to talk about things through fear of appearing racist or xenophobic (which appears to be the case in the long term police/political/media cover ups etc) it doesn't change anyone views - they can't really be challenged if they aren't expressed ....

All the time that could have been spent learning about Islam, instead wasted on being the witchfinder general.

(Talking of time wasting..pot says bye to kettle!)

I will stand by my point which is that with recent events on NYE and the cover up that happened not only in Cologne but what has been unearthed since, such as Sweden and other German cities the common factor is immigration and culture.

You trying to conflate that to mean all immigration and all culture is disingenuous at best and is actively trying to derail the whole purpose of the threads whilst actively doing what was a constant issue through the the first 2 threads, that any form of discussion cannot be had rationally because apparently somehow focusing everyone isn't educated enough despite everyone telling you so we are somehow still conflating to some broader term.

Also even with the slight clipping of my quote re burka, I stand by it. For some people the burka makes people uncomfortable, that is there choice, just the same as having polite conversation with a neo nazis would also.

You may think your the voice of reason and fighting the good fight against us all (I think you equated us to BNP at one point) but despite you knowing nothing about me or where I am on the political spectrum, (way right of the reactive left and far left of the BNP/UKIP that's for sure) but the conversation has never been in the way you like to frame it.

Many people have asked direct questions of you regarding your assertions of them, yet you conveniently ignore them, you are the one making sweeping statements and are looking continuously out of depth.

Also feel free to trawl through all the links I posted, apart from one all where respected sources(ie: left leaning) and even they are starting to question immigration and the culture of the attackers. Your behind Germany and even Sweden now in your thinking, go read the papers over there, everyone understand it must be discussed to prevent the far right taking control of the narrative and no one is conflating all immigration nor all cultures and bizarly enough there has been little mention of Syrian refugees and a lot of talk around North Africa/Morocco (something else you seem to ignore when you step on your high horse)

Justanother,

'For some people the burka makes people uncomfortable, that is there choice, just the same as having polite conversation with a neo nazis would also'.

Equating a Muslim with a neo Nazi? Really?

Am I alone in finding Emily's lists of things that it is unacceptable to say (including the list above) quite frightening? (for a democratic society, I mean).

I would also just like to point out that her response to my statement that Google Scholar brought up 7000 uses of the phrase Islamic society was incorrect; they are NOT mostly references to Islamic organisations, but are rather scholarly discussions of various aspects of, yes, shock horror, Islamic society (possibly she isn't aware of the difference between Google and Google Scholar).

I would also point out that Help's only critical reference to the headscarf (as opposed to the burka) was:

"Burkas (and even headscarves worn all day) sow discord and separateness because the wearer is conveying: I am different to you, I am not really part of life in this society."

Yet Emily has been happy to misrepresent this as:

"posts being left to stand on Mumsnet that state women that wear hijabs are hostile and sending out a message to Western women that they are superior?"

Emily is also clearly unaware that many Muslim women are uncomfortable with the burka in particular. The vast majority of Muslim women in this country are of Pakistani heritage, where neither the burka nor the hijab were worn. Both garments are Arabic. The reason they have become more prevalent here is down to a form of cultural imperialism coming from Saudi Arabia, which has been using its vast wealth to flood countries with Muslim populations all over the world with propaganda encouraging them to adopt the extremely conservative Salafist version of the religion (the gentle forms like Sufism are what was common in Pakistan).

Since when did wanting freedom of expression mean that you agreed with the speaker?

You show your agenda Emily.

But again Emily as I said, you selectively quoted my initial statement where I specifically said I wasn't equating the 2, go ahead though if it makes you feel better.

Emily 'lives overseas'. Do you live in a democracy Emily?

Just saw this statement from Emily: "Help's posts inferred that Muslims are hostile and inferior because they choose to cover their heads. She said women should not work wearing a hijab,".

She is getting more and more blatant in her misrepresentations and twisting of other people's words.

Should have been 'implied' - tut tut

Yes, kes, the same is true of Malaysia where, traditionally, Muslim women didn't cover their hair, and wore fairly fitted clothes. It's become much more common in recent years for women to wear hijab and very long loose clothes.

I find the niqab very unsettling. To me, it looks like the oppression of women.

Standpoint magazine has some interesting articles on the subject. They were published post the Paris attacks and pre-Cologne NYW, but are very relevant. It's good to real some journalism that's not afraid to deal with this.

www.standpointmag.co.uk/features-january-february-2016-nick-cohen-charlie-hebdo-paris-attacks-shame-on-liberals-who-rationalise-murder

www.standpointmag.co.uk/features-january-february-2016-julie-bindel-france-islam-the-second-class-sex-feminism

A German/Turkish woman (SPD politician) interviewed by Deutsche Welle:

"...the stylization of the headscarf as something that enriches our multicultural society. That is nonsense. Headscarves are a sign of female oppression. Anyone who supports this particular image of women shouldn't be surprised when men in the same community view women who don't wear headscarves as "loose."

But when religion is politicized and requires political decisions to be made, then that's not something we should just politely accept. This is the point where it interferes in our lives. For example, when I as a mother have to think about whether or not to allow my daughter to be taught by a teacher who wears a headscarf. Do I want my daughter to be exposed to the kind of ideology that says women have to cover themselves up in front of men? If you don't acknowledge that these things are connected, then the young men who grope women on the street could seem like an isolated phenomenon. But they're not; they're part of a bigger problem."

A German/Turkish woman (SPD politician) interviewed by Deutsche Welle:

"...the stylization of the headscarf as something that enriches our multicultural society. That is nonsense. Headscarves are a sign of female oppression. Anyone who supports this particular image of women shouldn't be surprised when men in the same community view women who don't wear headscarves as "loose."

But when religion is politicized and requires political decisions to be made, then that's not something we should just politely accept. This is the point where it interferes in our lives. For example, when I as a mother have to think about whether or not to allow my daughter to be taught by a teacher who wears a headscarf. Do I want my daughter to be exposed to the kind of ideology that says women have to cover themselves up in front of men? If you don't acknowledge that these things are connected, then the young men who grope women on the street could seem like an isolated phenomenon. But they're not; they're part of a bigger problem."