Assaults in Cologne and other European cities part VI

[HelpTheAnimalsFirst]

Thread 6.

BacktotheNorth, the national press haven't covered any of it. And in fact, what is more normal is for nationals to pay reporters from the locals to give them copy on a freelance basis. Or to pay the local papers for the stories direct. The locals are reporting, so I'm not sure why that's not happening. Particularly when something as remarkable as a Labour councillor being implicated is happening. DM in particular gets most of its sadface stories from the locals and monitors them closely so I'm wondering why this hasn't been picked up.

Summaries of the coverage are here:

rotherhampolitics.wordpress.com/author/rothpol/

'Am I alone in finding Emily's lists of things that it is unacceptable to say quite frightening? (for a democratic society, I mean)'

I didn't say you couldn't say them. What I did say was that many of those things showed hate, racism, prejudice and fear. I also gave examples of comments chuntering on about immigration. I gave examples of what the real interests of posters on this and the other threads were, which were not women's rights.

Some of the comments were pretty horrible and allowed to remain on Mumsnet, which is another story.

I haven't tried to shut you up. Arguing against prejudice and generalisations about MILLIONS of Muslims in the world and questioning how a petition based in xenophobic fears does any good for anyone, is not trying to shut you up.

la la la la la la

Emily
That isn't true at all. Help said that women should not be wearing hijab at work or in school

No, she said that France's policy (which is for PUBLIC SECTOR jobs, not all jobs) gets it right; is the whole of France racist?

and that it showed hostility to Western values and that they thought they were better than us."

No, she said "Burkas (and even headscarves worn all day) sow discord and separateness because the wearer is conveying: I am different to you, I am not really part of life in this society." Please give the quote where she says otherwise about hijab.

Even saying that wearing burkha or hijab sows discord is horrible. The claim that it shows they are saying they are not part of society is unpleasant and sad and absolutely not ok.

Yet another example of your hostility to free expression. Presumably you believe that the journalist Yasmin Alibai-Brown should not have been allowed to say:
"I am a Shia Muslim and I abhor the burqa. I am offended by the unchallenged presumption that women covering their heads and bodies and now faces are more pious and true than am I."
www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/yasmin-alibhai-brown/yasmin-alibhai-brown-wearing-the-burqa-is-neither-islamic-nor-socially-acceptable-1743375.html

This Muslim woman seems to see the burka as a statement of superiority by its wearers, does she not? She continues:

"The disease is progressive. It started 20 years ago with the hijab, donned then as a defiant symbol of identity, now a conscript's uniform. Is this "sad and absolutely not ok"?

I suggest you read the rest of the article. It goes on to say: "Racism is an evil but should never be used as an alibi to acquit oppressions within black and Asian or religious communities. That cry was used to deter us from exposing forced marriages and dowry deaths and black-upon-black violence."

While free speech allows her to say it, posters supporting statements like this shows the real motives behind the posters of these threads and their objectives in raising the petition.

Ludicrous conspiracy theory and smear. You have ignored thousands of posts expressing concern about women's safety and women's rights (rather along the lines of what Alibai-Brown says above) to relentlessly pursue your conspiracy-theorist agenda and your totalitarian obsession with censoring anything you judge to be "racist".

I am stating what help said, not misrepresenting it at all. I think you are trying to reword what she said to making yourselves look less bad for not making a stand about her unpleasant remarks.

That's just childish. I, clearly unlike you, have gone to the trouble of looking up Help's exact comments. I have NOT "reworded" them; you are judging me by your own poor standards of accuracy and honestly.

Of course you're not interested in my post, emily, because you're not interested in anything that derails your pre-conceptions and dogma, despite your own acknowledgement that you have little knowledge of Islam.

I am happy to send you links to the academic articles that support the assertions (hardly really an assertion, that the Qu'ran is a revealed text, or that the gates of ijtihad were closed, but never mind!) made in my post - written by Islamic scholars (primarily Hanafi, but all schools are represented) - though some of these are only available in Arabic, which I appreciate that you might not be able to read: though I honestly don't think you are actually interested.

I genuinely don't think you want to deepen your own understanding: you want to read things that support your world view, and either ignore or attempt to discredit anything that disagrees with this. That's your right - we live, thank goodness, in a free society - but please don't pretend your disdain for factual and intellectual arguments makes you somehow superior.

The issue off face covering, whether by burkha or niqab, is interesting in the Pakistani context, as apparently, it is becoming far more frequent in areas around Peshawar: it serves as a real source of irritation, apparently, to some of the Afghans living in the region! The FATA area of Pakistan has traditionally been much more conservative than the rest of Pakistan, apparently, and one of my students told me that she has experienced being beaten around the ankles whilst getting on a bus, because her burkha rode up as she climbed the steps, and she wasn't wearing long, thick socks. This was last summer, and on one occasion, so I don't know how much one can generalise from this, but she also commented that her grandfather, an imam, is becoming frustrated with some of his daughters-in-law who are insisting on covering their faces, against their husbands' wishes, because he sees it as an Arab tradition seized on by Peshwaris to demonstrate their piety, rather than a religion tradition or obligation.

Those of you who have mentioned Wahhabism and salafiyya might also be interested to google more about the Deobandis: this is a sort-of equivalent movement, but in an Indian sub-continental context, and grew up around a similar time as the various salafi movements in the Arab world, towards the end of the 19th century. It's important - and interesting - because, despite Wahhabi funding for many UK Sunni mosques, many of the preachers and imams that same funding provides support for are actually Deobandi rather than Wahhabi.

Lumela, while I do not know a lot about Islam, I do know that it hasn't even been established how many men that attacked the women in Cologne identify as 'Muslim', also that a tiny amount of people do not represent millions of others. I also believe the assumption that this is 'tarrahush gamea' is wrong.

Carla
www.standpointmag.co.uk/features-january-february-2016-julie-bindel-france-islam-the-second-class-sex-feminism

That's a brilliant article. Thanks for posting

Nick Cohen does my head in though

Continuing:

I didn't say you couldn't say them. ...Some of the comments were pretty horrible and allowed to remain on Mumsnet, which is another story.

You have repeatedly suggested that Mumsnet should be deleting and censoring these posts. That IS effectively saying certain things can't be said.

I haven't tried to shut you up.

See above.

emilybohemia

'Lumela, while I do not know a lot about Islam, I do know that it hasn't even been established how many men that attacked the women in Cologne identify as 'Muslim', also that a tiny amount of people do not represent millions of others. I also believe the assumption that this is 'tarrahush gamea' is wrong.'

Totally spot on as usual. Personally, nothing would induce me to generalize about the operation of gravity - no matter how many millions of times gravity seems to pull stuff down, I would remind you all that it is just a theory, and cannot be relied upon in your daily lives. After all, you might wake up on the ceiling tomorrow, and then wouldn't you feel silly?

Wiki's definition of an internet troll

'In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[2] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion,[3] often for their own amusement.'

HQ, why are you allowing this continuing derailment?

I will ask again on this thread then Emily. Your trying to accuse me of racism, which is something I take very seriously. In fact as I mentioned on a previous thread if you knew me in real life I am sure you would put me in the identity politics spectrum as not being able to be racist.

The uncomfortable truth that is coming from recent events(ignoring Rotherham etc) is Immigration and cultures are a significant factor.

No one has said that sexual assaults or mysoginy isn't a problem within Europe, no one is trying to conflate the recent reports with all immigration or all people of a certain culture, I don't think anyone even referred to Syrian refugees until you tried to infer that is what they was talking about.

I would like to know why you have tried to slur me, and what is inherently wrong in highlighting contributing factors to the recent reports coming out of Europe.

I haven't got time to post at length but please everyone, this is such a great informative thread if you filter out the trolling. I'm just skipping over her posts and pretending they aren't there.

Report individual posts.

Yes shins I agree. Not great at taking my own advice though. I think everyone is waiting for the petition to be published. Hopefully it will be soon and we can go on to discussing that.

I did lol at this:

emily

'It isn't hostility to free expression. It is hostility to someone making nasty generalisations'

The very next line:

'I think a large proportion of the French are racist, yes.'

So nasty generalisations are acceptable about the French people, are they? This is one of the funniest comedy routines I've ever heard.

I'm skipping a certain poster and any replies. Time waster.

Im waiting eagerly too and hoping the petition is up soon. I was one of the 5 emails used. If I hear anything, I'll post here.

Has anyone contacted Shirley Williams? She is a lifelong feminist. I will write to her tomorrow.

Backtothenorth

You seriously think that their religious preferences are above criticism? That migrants freedoms are protected more than any other group?

Migrants come from different religions, but if we look at Muslims for example, hate crimes against Muslims in London rose by 70 per cent between 2014 and 2015. Tell MAMA, a national project which monitors anti-Muslim incidents within the UK, said that 60 per cent of victims were Muslim women wearing the Hijab.

Women wearing hijab are less likely to be employed. They are also made to feel uncomfortable or subject to prejudice.

So, street harrassment, employment discrimination, prejudice. I think that shows theirreligious preferences are placed below others.

Migrants are often referred to as cockroaches or a swarm, language fitting for one of Hitler's speeches. That is just for starters.

Police ignoring sexual assault and society not giving a shit is the factor justanother.

Meanwhile: anti-sexism demonstrations by Syrians yesterday in Cologne here and here, and in Würzburg.

And the facebook page of one of the organising groups.

Earlier today I also saw photos including North Africans among the demonstrators, but I can't find the link now. Anyway, they were represented as well.

Police ignoring sexual assault and society not giving a shit is the just one factor just another

FTFY

Still haven't answered why I'm racist though, you sling the accusation you have to back it up.
(Sorry for the derailing everyone else)

hefzi I'd be very interested if you could post links to the academic articles you mention, though not to the ones in Arabic, since I can't read it well enough to understand anything academic.

Back Brilliantly observed

Backtothenorth

'I think a large proportion of the French are racist, yes.'

That's not a generalisation. Im not generalising about a group there am I? I make it clear that I'm not by stating 'a large proportion.' I can back that statement up by stating, 'I believe a large proportion of French people are racist, which can be seen in the growth of popularity of Le Front Nationaleand the rise in attacks on ethnic minorities.

'The French are racist', would be a very different statement and a generalisation.

Emily

Anyone can use the Advanced Search facility here to find out whether Help used the phrase that you have put in quotes: "ask for it" or "asking for it" or "asked for it". You are wrong.

"and inferring that they are not a part of Western society and that they should be treated differently for their religious choice. "

She did not either say or imply any such thing. Your accusations are getting wilder and wilder.

I observe that you have nothing to say about Yasmin Alibai-Brown's article on the subject. Presumably what an actual Muslim woman has to say is of less interest to you than pursuing your vendetta.

For the record, I (and I suspect a number of other posters on this thread) do not agree with the idea of banning either the burka or the hijab. But I support Help's right to say so. As I have said before, the main aim of this thread was to produce a petition, not to discuss individual poster's viewpoints, and most of us were focusing on points of agreement rather than disagreement, in the interests of furthering that aim.

Right; that's me done. No more taking the bait!