Assaults in Cologne and other European cities part VI

[HelpTheAnimalsFirst]

Thread 6.

Just to clarify, my comment earlier about angels dancing on pin heads was not a criticism of the discussion/rewrites of the phrasing regarding the petition. Clumsy way of saying we are being dragged back to a certain posters narrow agenda repeatedly, and are not moving forward creating said petition because we are goaded into arguing with them. Like a narrow theological argument, not very relevant to what we seem to aiming for as a group.

I have emailed Allison Pearson.

I wanted to say that again in case it got lost in the fray.

I have linked our threads etc. And thanked her for keeping this issue in the media.

It will soon get swept away and forgotton.

On New Year’s Eve, women across the EU were subjected to mass sex assaults. UK women must be free to travel, work and live without intimidation or sexual violence. We ask the Government to record harassment and abuse of women because of their sex as a hate crime.

I know I keep coming back to wanting this recorded as a hate crime but women seem to be the only 'minority' group excluded for this. From my research of all of five minutes hate crime is largely a recording and reporting system and I'd like to get if misogynist abuse was recorded it would immediately top the table.

Thank you to all who have persisted in keeping this on track and pushing on to get action

You all have my sincere admiration and thanks

In case it wasn't obvious, my post above should have said that I haven't said that we should not talk about culture.

Calm, I simply don't agree with you, that pointing out perceived racism is to close discussion. I don't think it's ludicrous to pick out the comment about the woman in the burka, for example. I don't think you can just pretend those sorts of comments are insignificant on this thread.

You are posting on a public forum about migrants as well as sex crimes against women. You feel our comments are irrelevant. Obviously we don't agree with you. I am assuming that about the other two posters- I do not know them!

Your comment about the timing of my posts- I don't even know how to respond to.

just found this email from the Guardian Reader's Editor in my email, from 2 days ago, responding to my complaint about the reference to only 40 sexual assaults on New Year's Eve in Germany in one of their articles:

" That sentence has now been amended in the the article – www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/14/migrant-bogeyman-europe-mood-refugees – to say this: "In Germany, New Year’s Eve celebrations turned nasty as incidents of sexual assault, many by Arab or north African migrants, were reported; by this week police investigating events that night in Cologne had received more than 200 complaints of sexual offences." "

Better late than never I suppose.

Just in case our post got missed earlier, can we stress that we will delete personal attacks and troll-hunting. We have no reason to believe anyone on this thread is not genuine or not who they say they are. There are certainly differences of opinion but as long as those are expressed civilly, that's fine. It would be a great shame if such an important thread had to be deleted due to something as silly as troll-hunting, so please can we draw a line under it now and get back to the discussion in hand?

Twisted I don't think anybody's comments are irrelevant even if I disagree with them, I think we are all entitled to a point of view and to argue for that. I'm just, as a novice to threads like this one (I usually stick to fluffier stuff), to understand how this can be discussed and women's rights protected against this type of behaviour if we cannot mention race or culture without accusations of racism

I've read all the threads and followed with interest.

Drawing up a petition and asking for women's rights and safety to be ensured is not racist.

To everyone who is getting called racist by some posters just because you are concerned at what has been happening and the implications for women's rights and safety in the future, ignore the racist accusations. If you know you are not racist simply let it pass over your heads. It's just a word, a tactic to either shut down or derail the objective of these threads, which is to protect women's rights and safety from current and future threats.

"The price of liberty is eternal vigilance". Women ignore what is happening at our peril. I have not been a feminist all my life (am over 70 now) to be told as some politicians are implying in Germany that it is our job to ensure our safety. It is the job of the legislators and the enforcement agencies to ensure it.

Women's rights to be treated as equal citizens and human beings is paramount in this situation. The accusations of racism are just so much bollox.

It would be a great shame if such an important thread had to be deleted due to something as silly as troll-hunting, so please can we draw a line under it now and get back to the discussion in hand?

Inona many posters on this thread have threatened to leave it due to certain posters.

Would MNHQ be happy if this thread is abandoned on here due to attitude of one, two maybe three posters?

What would that say about MN?

As I said - its ironic and ridiculous that we have to fight and navigate the most insulting cries of racism, surely one of the worst accusations one can make to simply formulate plans to protest for women's rights.

Having to remind each other not to respond to someone who is being deliberately goading, whilst we keep on track and nothing it seems is being done about that poster?!

It's just a word, a tactic to either shut down or derail the objective of these threads, which is to protect women's rights and safety from current and future threats.

Its obv isnt it, so why doesn't MNHQ do something?

I see the Rheinberg Carnival has been cancelled www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3400972/German-town-cancels-annual-carnival-fears-Cologne-style-sex-assaults-women.html

I don't think this will be forgotten WillBeat, not unless those responsible suddenly realise the error of their ways and become law abiding citizens overnight, It's an ongoing situation and articles are still being published daily. If it continues there will be massive civil unrest.

Why don't we just create a closed Facebook group where people who want to get on with the petition can do so without being distracted by accusations of neo-nazism? Does everyone have Facebook?

Calm - personally I wish for my daughters to enjoy freedoms without being assaulted by anyone. Therefore I strongly support that all attacks should be dealt with regardless of the perpetrator's colour of skin, immigration status, religion or social standing.

That the attacks in Cologne have not been dealt with swiftly by the authorities for whatever reason ( including simply not caring about sexual assault enough, victim blaming attitudes etc) is wrong and needs to be addressed. But without demonizing the whole demographic the perps came from as the only reason that these attacks happened, while continuing to ridicule anyone who speaks out against sexism and assaults when not being committed by foreigners. If you just focus on one group of perpetrators you won't protect any one from any crimes.

Calm I'm glad to hear you say that you feel there is room for different perspectives. It's some comments that have been challenged, imo rightly, but not all. I do worry that there is fear based prejudice behind some of the comments- and possibly behind the whole idea of the thread. I should probably rephrase that- I worry it is a component of what is behind the thread and may not be explicit in anyone's mind. Again that doesn't mean none of it can be discussed.

No response from Mumsnet HQ on why the thread related to travellers was closed but racist comments on here are allowed to stay? Double standards?

If you just focus on one group of perpetrators you won't protect any one from any crimes.

widow, BEFORE new years eve, German women felt safe to walk about.

attacks had fallen in general.

Having grown up in a carnival region, I know that groping and assaults are pretty normal - and if a woman would speak out against it she's probably be told to choose a more modest outfit and/or stay away. Rheinberg's decision to cancel says nothing about the reality of an immigrant threat, but is just a lovely example of double standards and Germany unfortunately becomimg more and more comfortable with open xenophobia again.

I have been off this thread as I do have a life to lead... and I'm busy this afternoon.

Am I right that someone is getting the petition up this afternoon? I'd prefer it to leave out hate crime stuff as I think that's something that would need more consideration than we are able to give it on this thread.

I keep checking back for news of the petition...

I like Emily's posts, I look forward to reading them every day, so full of wisdom and sunshine

Willbeat - Bist Du Deutsche, lebst Du in Deutschland oder woher kommt dein Wissen wie sicher oder unsicher deutsche Frauen und Mädchen fühlen bzw gefühlt haben?