Assaults in Cologne and other European cities part VI

[HelpTheAnimalsFirst]

Thread 6.

May I suggest sticking to what was successfully keeping things moving forward on the early threads and just not read or respond to posts that are doing nothing to further the action or discussion?

There seem to be a good range of article links - is this enough? Would more be helpful? Is there any other practical help that would be useful?

I would like a response to the concerns I raised MUMSNET HQ.

Do many of the posts that have been left to stand on this thread and the others reflect the supposedly inclusive and tolerant space that Mumsnet claims to be? I feel you need to address this and not avoid it or you risk undermining the reputation of this site.

Widow, we are half Germany!! I don't speak it my DH does!!

We visit Germany several times a year!!

Never ever felt threatened or any issues or problems. I am always vigilant wherever I am, its in built in me. But I have never felt more or less threat in the towns we visit than other places.

We have family living there near Munich and Stuttgart, personal safety for women has never been the urgent priority that it is now!!

The Times (behind a paywall) had two articles in the business section on this.

P. 44 Migration crisis 'poses threat to world economy'
It says that the big shots st Davos are worried that, "If European governments mishandle mass migration from the Middle East and Africa, global order, as well as economic growth, could be put in jeopardy,"

P. 49 Refugee burden may prevent balanced budget in Germany

Perhaps the possibility of an economic impact will focus minds more than any sense of plain decency about human rights for women has!

Widow and twisted I think there is a lot of common ground between us and, although there may be some differences, we all have protection of women's rights as one of our prime objectives so we should focus on that rather than pulling apart over the differences. All attacks are reprehensible but we have to eat the elephant that is sexual violence one bite at a time and we are discussing this in view of the scale of the attacks on this one day, possible links to taharrush and the subsequent attempted cover-up. Everybody here, as far as I am aware is very aware that this is not representative of a whole group of people of any particular race or religion

What a coincidence, emily pops up with a divisive comment just as the common ground is spotted

"Just when I thought I was out.....they pull me back in"

sorry rumble your right.
one can only try.

Its so hard.

I will try my best any hows.

I think we should email Sairia Khan -or tweet her(I don't do twitter)
She seems to talk a lot of sense and identifies as (not very strict) Muslim.

Yet again to Emily, Twisted and Widow
The background of the assailants is highly relevant to what has happened. It is the reason that the police attempted to cover up and minimise the events in Cologne. As did the media and the politicians. It transpires that this is not a new thing and has happened in other EU countries. The reasoning behind this is far from clear - there was definitely a political agenda in some cases. A fear of giving the far right ammunition. This cover up appears to have back fired spectacularly in that case. The issue is in danger of becoming owned by the far right. We can only prevent this if we talk openly about this - without fear.

Which we are too scared to - in case we are labelled racist, xenophobes etc. Which is playing into the hands of the far right AND the extremists.
Ignoring the facts is not helping anyone - including the genuine refugees.

Finally the thing that has concerned me most ...has made me fear for the future of my daughters was the initial advice to women in light of these events was to keep themselves safe. Keep the men at arms length, not to go out at night etc. That can never be allowed to be the answer.

Widow and twisted I think there is a lot of common ground between us and, although there may be some differences, we all have protection of women's rights as one of our prime objectives so we should focus on that rather than pulling apart over the differences. All attacks are reprehensible but we have to eat the elephant that is sexual violence one bite at a time and we are discussing this in view of the scale of the attacks on this one day, possible links to taharrush and the subsequent attempted cover-up. Everybody here, as far as I am aware is very aware that this is not representative of a whole group of people of any particular race or religion

YY to this.

was the initial advice to women in light of these events was to keep themselves safe. Keep the men at arms length, not to go out at night etc.

Yes. ^ shocking

They were in Friday's paper (yesterday.)

Perhaps the possibility of an economic impact will focus minds more than any sense of plain decency about human rights for women has!

Only when the economic impact hits will the powers that be take any notice 2016. After all, the whole sorry state of affairs in Syria, Afghanistan, Libya etc are all as a result of power, greed and money.

"It's some comments that have been challenged, imo rightly, but not all. "

Nonsense. Emily has been accusing the entire thread and everyone who participates in it of being "quite comfortable with far right views", and has stated that "Anti immigrant stances, prejudice and scaremongering seem to be the goal of the majority of posters."

From my recollection, I'm sure I could find plenty more examples of this kind of blanket condemnation if I had time to look for them.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3400783/Group-Syrian-Afghan-migrant-boys-sexually-assaulted-three-girls-Austrian-school-MONTHS-police-notified.html

'Austrian officials are investigating claims that underage asylum seekers have been sexually assaulting three schoolgirls for months without anybody taking action.'

willbeat the arm's length advice was and is appalling and no different to the victim blaming that is always at the forefront of any reports on sexual assaults.

There will be an economic impact, tourism to Europe has already been affected

Calm - I don't think that Emily is being divisive at all. I cant remember disagreeing with any of her points (but may have done).
She has stated much more clearly than I have that there needs to be strong penalties for all sex attacks against women.
I have no doubt that you and I also have common ground. I don't think anyone on this thread wants sexual violence to continue. We would all love for it to stop unreservedly I'm sure.
When trying to think about how sexual violence comes about - I have been called an apologist and a minimiser. I have not understood these accusations. I don't think stopping immigration will do much apart from cause yet more suffering to some of the most vulnerable people on the planet.

I'm not in Facebook, if you move the convo there would someone please pm me. If you need another email and name to add to the five needed I'm happy for mine to be used as long as it's not viewable to the public.

I think there's a feminist activism topic in FWR, if it becomes too difficult to organise on this thread, it could be an option to start one there.

When trying to think about how sexual violence comes about - I have been called an apologist and a minimiser.
The thing is, Twisted, that it seems that a significant proportion of the men involved in the NWE assaults were not from war zones. It also seems they were from cultures were women face sexual harassment as a matter of routine. The treatment of women and girls is culturally variable: there are countries in the world where being a woman is, frankly, bloody awful: child marriage, limited inheritance rights etc.

If saying that gets me called a 'racist' I guess I'll have to take it on the chin, though I do not see what a statement of fact about cultural variation has to do with 'race'.

I had a very odd experience this morning. I have finally got access to my phone again.

widow what about the attempted cover up? Can you see that is no different to what happened in Rotherham? Even the press were afraid to touch this at first ... the Guardian were squirming.
(And I know it is not the first large scale cover up - we could talk about historical sex abuse cases etc but that isn't relevant to this what happened and has been happening in Europe.)
It is about preventing this escalating, becoming the norm - women can't be protected so lose their freedoms.

We need to find solutions...
DP said something about these men having nothing to lose.
And I think that is valid - basically they know they can get away with it, they can change identity, nationality, move countries. There are so many of them at one time they can't be checked properly, they can't anyway as someone said up thread I doubt anyone in Syria has time at the moment to verify and background check anyone. They aren't worried about a criminal record preventing them getting a job etc, they can just change identity.
And they can't be deported back to somewhere unsafe.
The way society works is partly fear of the consequences of our actions. How can we make sure there are consequences for these men?
(And apparently if they do actually get caught the laws on sexual assault in Germany are useless - I believe they are better here in the UK - we can't influence a change of law in Germany. )

No-one wants to stop immigration twisted, we just don't want unconrolled, unlimited numbers of sexually aggressive young men who think it's perfectly acceptable to think stick their fingers in our fannys as we go about our daily business. You know, like what's happening across Europe. Too much to ask, really?

Can I ask everyone to ignore posters who annoy you as it would be a great pity if the thread were to be deleted. There are important debate and links on here.

whats FWR?

Feminism and Women's Rights