9/11. Not interested in a debate here, but can we just have a quick show of hands?

[AnotherEffingOrangeRevel]

I'm just interested in how many people around here are also highly skeptical of what we have been told about 9/11.

I'm really not after a debate (it would be long, involved, probably pointless and personally I have done this elsewhere), but I just wanted to see who is around.

It has very strong ongoing relevance for current world events.

Many thanks.

I don't know what to think really. was surprised to see David Cameron invoking 9/11 in hos Tory party conference speech last week after all this time & with so much water under the bridge. Felt a bit like playing to the Americans - maybe for some cushy consultancy work after he's stepped down as PM? Most incongruous.

The thing with conspiracy theories, is that individual snippets of them can sometimes seem to make sense, but added together you need to start going down some crazy rabbit holes to make it all work.

My conspiracy theory is that governments make up their own conspiracy theories to add to the chaos so that nobody can ever know the full truth

OP I am so offended I can hardly write a response to you.

It was not some sort of conspiracy. A bunch of disaffected, upper middle class Saudis flew planes into the towers because they could.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree

I am not trying to be ignorant. I am trying to point out that human beings are programmed to fight for survival.

When a boat starts to sink, people try to save themselves. When a bomb goes off, people run and try to get to safety.

We know - with the benefit of hindsight - that many, many people were doomed that day. Because they were above the plane crash or because even though they were below they did not have time to get out.

But they did not know that. So I stand by my assertion that it seems odd that people knew they were going to die and started sending messages for loved ones. That's really not behaviour that you see in other acute crisis situations, that I know of.

Thank you, Maryz your explanation makes a lot of sense.

Bear in mind that there was also about half an hour between the two collapses . Think of that half hour for those on floors above the impact point.

For a start, what do architects know about structural behaviour?

I hope they know a lot about it, especially the ones who design skyscrapers

I believe the general situation, although I wouldn't be surprised if there were details that we didn't know about - and trust that it's for good reason.

As Ihavenoideawhereitis says, I believe the main facts that we have been told are true. The event was too huge to have been orchestrated by the government, and then to have been covered up. Of course we won't have been told every detail of the events, and nor should we.

I believe there will be aspects that we don't know about. I wouldn't be surprised to find out a civilian plane had been shot down - I can see how a military/intelligence risk assessment would have been made that that was the safest thing to do, and I can see why they wouldn't want to trumpet that fact afterwords.

I also believe that for invasion of Afghanistan etc, some facts were misrepresented to the public to allow the governments to achieve what they wanted without there actually being that serious a link between 9/11 and the invasion.

But as for the rest... No, sorry. It is far harder to believe that that many people could a) agree to be involved in a conspiracy that would kill thousands of their fellow citizens and b) keep it secret afterwards. I mean, seriously - the scale of 9/11 as a conspiracy? Not workable.

"I hope they know a lot about it, especially the ones who design skyscrapers hmm"

You really don't know anything about building design do you. Architects design the look, space requirements etc. Structural engineers make sure it can stand up. Building services engineers ensure there is adequate air conditioning and so on. Skyscraper design is a specialist area within structural engineering, and no, architects do not know a lot about how the engineering works (with notable exceptions such as Santiago Calatrava who is an architect and engineer).

And once the architect and structural engineers are through an architectural technician checks the obvious, livable things, like door widths, socket heights/placement, steps, windows etc.

They are quite distinct jobs! The technician is usually the one with both degrees. This would have been me, but in 1982 I was told that computers would make the job unnecessary... hollow laugh, I would have been worth millions during the 90s skill gap!

I'm another one who thinks that, on balance, the 'mass media' explanation that 'they' have told 'us' is broadly true.

I'm also pretty sure that there are details the mass of the population does not know which the security services does know.

And I'm completely convinced that there is no way it could have been a put-up job: somebody, somewhere, would have snitched by now, even if it had been possible to organise it in the first place.

services do know

Saudi Arabia committed the 9/11 attacks.

The USA invaded Iraq on the back of those attacks. The "war on terror" dominated mainstream media. Saudi Arabia remains unaccountable.

I don't believe in any conspiracy theory. 9/11 was absolutely not some government inside job so that those secret members of the "New World Order" could get the secret stash of gold hidden at the bottom of the twin towers (or whatever!).

BUT The USA's "special" relationship with Saudi Arabia is not something we hear all that much about. Money, close personal links between the Bush and Saudi Royal family, and financial links.

This article explains how 9/11 has lead to the rise of ISIS.

www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/15/saudi-arabia-911-and-the-rise-of-isis/

OP we are not told everything in mainstream media. Media is fed by high-office spin. But there are no secret conspiracies.
Things are quite blatant if you care enough to look.

Thanks to all for your responses to the OP, which I know is about a difficult topic. As I hope I made clear, I had no agenda in asking, beyond interest. We will all make up our own minds. If you've looked into this with an open mind and come to the conclusion that the official story works for you, fine. We can agree to differ.

The following is a good, open article (I think) in case anyone is interested. And perhaps remember that there is a world of difference between rejecting the official story and proposing something equally ludicrous instead. Personally, I have no idea what really happened, but am confident it's not what we're told happened.

www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2011/sep/12/9-11-symposium-charlie-skelton

That isn't really a good article is it though? It's just an account of meeting some conspiracy theorists.

I mean:

September 11, he argues, was a coup carried out by a rogue network within the US military and government. A cabal of fascists, working with (and for) a banking oligarchy, "the old boys of Wall Street".

Give me strength.

Do you think there are fundamental untruths in what we have been led to believe (e.g., in the mainstream media) about 9/11?

No

AnotherEffing, I would like to know what you imagine might have happened that we haven't been told, what these large untruths are, and what evidence there is for them that you have found convincing.

Good overview and rebuttal of 9/11 conspiracy theories

rationalwiki.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories

I agree with expat's summing up of conspiracy theorists, except in the case of David Kelly.

I actually had to resign a job because my thick as shit boss would insist that M McCann's parents had killed her.

Bacially no. But nor do I believe the conspiracy theories. I think We haven't been told the whole truth, but broadly speaking things happened as they are reported.
The government and the Media lies I've been in the Middle East and seen things with my own eyes that have been massively misreported in the media, so I don't believe much of what I read in the papers but even for me the conspiracy theories regarding this just seem fantastical.

I don't think there is any doubt there are things we don't know about- as a PP said, thank goodness for that.

I've heard the argument that governments are not organised enough to plan situations which later become the stuffs of conspiracy theories and I think it's horse shit- you only have to look at the things released under the official
Secrets act 100 year rules to see this has been going on forever. Of course it can and does happen.

That said, I don't think that 9/11 is a conspiracy

No. I don't think we have full knowledge of what happened that day but I don't believe the American Government would have allowed 9/11 to take place willingly.