Chrissie Hynde said that victims of assault have to take responsibility

[Gymbunny1204]

She's been interviewed by the Sunday Times.

Wearing short skirt, high heels, drunk - implies your fault if raped. Dressed like that you need to be able to run. She says.

She was assaulted at age 21. Says her fault she went with the men.

I hate her for making me think for a split second it was my fault I was abused as a child for running to the loo in just a top which did cover my bottom, I had no pants on. In front of the abuser.

Piece in the daily mail about her interview.

I suspect she has a record to promote.

"That said, we're also here to make parents' lives easier, so where necessary, we will use our discretion to delete posts (or ban posters) if it seems to us that doing so is in keeping with this aim. "

Overriding principle of Talk on MN - making lives easier.

From the talk guidelines...

"We're all for freedom of speech. That said, we'll remove posts we consider to contain personal attacks, to break the law and/or to be obscene, racist, sexist, disablist, ageist or homophobic, once they are brought to our attention, we will also delete any posts that we think are just seriously unpleasant (Please note that any subsequent posts repeating the words in the deleted post may be deleted, too.)"

Seriously unpleasant sums some views up nicely

Oh and i reserve the right to hound anyone using 'monotone moron' to describe my behaviour

Rapists are responsible for rape. Any woman should be able to dress as she wishes and be drunk without being subjected to sexual assault or rape. But there are men who would assume she is a) issuing an invitation to have sex and does not mean it when says no, or b) that she is vulnerable and can be raped without consequence or c) that because she is incapable of saying no she is in effect saying yes.

So, I should not live in a nice house or own nice objects because someone might want to steal them?

Also, there is nothing wrong with asking people to define and clarify their points in a debate - their failure to do so repeatedly, despite being asked repeatedly, does not mean they are being "hounded".

There was nothing supportive about the posts from either of the posters you mentioned.

I feel very conflicted about this. Not Chrissie Hynde in particular as what she says about what you're wearing is utter bullshit in my opinion. Women should be allowed to dress however they want and it shouldn't be anything whatsoever to do with any men that happen to be nearby, 'asking for it' is a phrase that makes me want to kill someone.

BUT I don't agree with the argument we seem to be reaching now that you can't educate young women about how to keep themselves out of high risk situations, as that is victim blaming. I don't think that saying that to a young woman in anyway implies 'if you do get raped it's your own fault'. I was always told by my parents and all my friends were told the same on a night out, we never felt they were saying 'or you're asking for it'
'stay together, arrange transport home, don't go home with men you don't know, don't go to places where you don't know your way around, don't get so drunk that you lose control of your faculties/ability to make judgement calls'. We didn't always do all of these things but we understood we had a responsibility to keep ourselves safe. That doesn't mean taking responsibility if a man rapes you. To me they're separate things.

A friend of a friend who used to come out with us on nights out went through a difficult time for a few years and would literally go home with a different man or group of men every night. We were very worried about her and would constantly try to keep her with us as we all felt this was unsafe and were sure something terrible would happen to her. That didn't mean that we blamed her in anyway when she was raped by three different men on two separate occasions. She did not 'deserve' that and anybody who thinks that must have an element of the psychotic about them. I blame those men completely and totally and feel they should take more responsibility for taking advantage of someone they knew was vulnerable.

But I know I will tell my daughters and sons the same thing about keeping themselves safe. I just don't see why it's so bad to say that. The whole argument about 'why don't we teach men not to rape instead' seems preposterous to me as, to any normal parent, that obviously goes without saying!

Those of you who are saying it's partially women's fault, they have a duty to protect themselves, etc., can I ask you a question?

When a man gets raped - and we know that men do get raped by other men - is it ever his fault? Is it ever because he dressed provocatively, got drunk, or hung around with the wrong sort of men?

I would be really interested to know your answer. Because, strangely, I have never once seen a man being blamed for his own rape.

My point is that people have right to debate an issue on here without being hounded when others don't agree with them.

So - what could you have done to keep yourself safe from being hounded?

There are two issues at hand here I think. One is that victims of rape are victims of a rapist and it's as simple as that. And it shouldn't matter how you dress or where you go or whatever you do - you should be safe.

But the reality is different. Women are already vulnerable to sexual violence simply by virtue of being women. And what you wear or how you act doesn't come into that at all, because it's simply fucking ridiculous to suggest that any item of clothing or behaviour is inviting rape. It isn't.

Advice to not get too drunk isn't victim blaming in my opinion because we are more vulnerable when drunk. We don't have our wits about us and we become over - confident so go places we wouldn't if sober or e.g go home with someone we wouldn't if sober etc. That still doesn't mean it's your fault if something awful happens. The blame is always on the attacker but it makes sense to try not to become more vulnerable through drink. The same as I'd say to young men going down town for a night. A huge amount of violent crime (sexual and not) occurs when the victim or perpetrator or both have been drunk. Advice on trying to reduce vulnerability to violence is common sense.

But if a young bloke gets his head kicked in on a night down town we don't say 'well you were asking for it really being pissed'. We don't say ' but what we're you doing? Why did they kick the shit out of you?'. We say that it doesn't matter what you were doing, violence is unacceptable and you are a victim.

The 'you wouldn't leave your windows open' burglary analogy is often used when talking about rape.

The difference is when someone says they've been burgled we don't immediately say 'what did YOU do wrong though, did you leave your windows open?'. And even if they did, we still say how fucking awful that some bastard thought he had the right to come into your home without being invited and go through your property, steal things and violate your home. We never say 'well you twat, what did you expect?' if they left their windows open or if they didn't, speculate on what the burglary victim might have done to somehow invite that burglary.

Rape is the only crime that provokes that reaction.

Gym, please don't deregister. The vast majority of women, and the might of MN, are standing with you.

Main.... to use your words.

Take a different perspective, when you leave the house you lock the doors and windows. And you have insurance. This is to protect your possessions, because you know there are nasty people who will go into your home and take your stuff. In theory you should be able to go out and leave the property unlocked and return to everything intact. BUT we accept that's not the case.

I'm not blaming victims or suggesting one locks one vagina, how stupid is that comment!

So.... to prevent burglary, you lock everything up and have insurance, yes? How would you suggest that women lock up their various orifices and what insurance do you have for them to stop them being violated?

You see, the burglary comparison is either a good one, and you have an answer to that, or it's a shit one and completely irrelevant.

I, and anyone with more than the tiniest intellect knows it's a shit comparison. You apparently think it's apt. So explain it. Or.... fuck off. Either works really.

It's not a comparison , so if you understood that first lovely you'd be up to the debate.
But you don't, so you're not.

As I have said , I do not blame victims, if you consider my opening sentences you will see that I'm very clear, the perpetrators are the ones at fault.
Could not be clearer!

It is a complex issue, as I also said.
Accordingly people struggle to consider the aspects that are less acceptable or comprehensible to them so they become tunnel visioned, abusive and gather in a pack to reassure each other with their common agreements.

You can be as rude as you like, it's you it reflects badly on, I'm quite happy for you to be ignorant about the issue and to vent like a harridan.

Think about it, why would I be bothered that you're swearing at me? I'm not pet. So whatever you're doing it for, you should ensure that you are getting the pay off you need.
Cheerio :)

“I don't understand why men aren't up in arms about this.”

I used to wonder that. Why aren't men offended by the implication that they are not morally developed enough to prevent themselves raping a woman who "triggers" the rape response by wearing high heels/ mini skirt/ getting drunk etc.?

Now I think, men* aren't up in arms about it, because it suits them to keep women fearful of rape and grateful to the ones who don't rape.

I can't think of any other reason, why men don't en masse, refute this shit about them not being 100% responsible for their own behaviour when it comes to women, whatever her behaviour is.

Most men have no difficulty accepting that they have to take responsibility fro their actions vis a vis other men. It's only with women, that they suddenly demand that women take responsibility for their actions.

It's very depressing to admit it, one wants to believe that it's all a misunderstanding and a mistake, but it can't be. Otherwise, where are all th men calling into chat shows and phone-ins and posting on websites, to proclaim that they don't rape women in high heels or drunk, so it can't be because of the high heels and drunk? Where are they? Why aren't they speaking up? It must be because they like this state of affairs. What other reason could there be?

*NAM.

Mainkster earlier on in the thread, you said women shouldn't wear high heels in case they get raped.

Do you mean that no women ever should wear high heels, ever, in case there’s a rapist around?

Have you shared your thoughts with Jimmy Choo?

Have you written to Theresa May about it, she's famous for wearing high heels and she works in a very male-dominated workplace suffused with misogyny.

What about women in the workplace, many wear high heels because it's the norm with suits - it's seen as smart dress. Have you written to shoe manufacturers telling them they're putting their customers at risk of rape by producing all these high heels?

"So lets say mr rapist is in a club looking for a slutty (urgh) woman, yet all of the women stick together, mind their drinks and are wearing burkhas. What do you think he will do - go home thinking "never mind, my raping urge can wait til tomorrow"? Or do you think that one of the women (or even a man) regardless of following the safe-rules will end up being raped?"

I think he will probably go home to leave his raping to another day, or he will target someone else.

So your advice is, "make sure a rapist rapes someone other than you"? Is that the gist of it?

Yes Main. It is a complex issue. One around which I worked for a good while. Therefore I have a sneaky suspicion that I just might know more about it than some random who joins a forum to point fingers and laugh at the women on that forum, no?

And to be fair, pet, as an adult, I can pretty much describe people as they are. And tell them what I think of them as I please.

Do toddle off back to wherever you came from, you dullard.

The better advice Basil would be... Until men stop raping women, men aren't allowed out unless they're wearing full body armour, shouldn't ever be alone with a woman, should never be allowed to buy women drinks and should only ever wear high heels. And, they should have to wear some form of chastity belt and take out insurance on their dicks, because they obviously can't keep a lid on them if they see women acting/dressing in a certain way.

Would that advice be reasonable? Fair? Sensible? Of course not. So why is the suggestion that women must do similar still so prevalent?

Oh no, s'ok. I know the answer to that.

If it was possible to get insurance that paid out if you were raped, the actuaries would simply say "meh" at the "risk factors" of drink and Hugh heels.

Want a low premium? End your relationship. Have no male friends. Have no male relatives.

No AskBasil
I did not say this
"Mainkster earlier on in the thread, you said women shouldn't wear high heels in case they get raped"

I simply did not. I said that women should take some safety measures.
Whatever are appropriate and achievable at the time and in the circumstances would seem fair enough. Even so, if they are attacked, whether taking safety measures or not, they are not to blame.
Being as a safe as you can is simply taking steps to minimise your risk from people who may harm you.
I have not said anything about short skirts or provocative clothes as I think that's nonsense.

I also said, very clearly, that victims are not to blame and that perpetrators are at fault.

But people are simply desperate to have a row about this and so they will. They will be offensive, rude stupid, and dishonest in order to just batter home their opinion like a key board warrior.
I've been a member of this community for ages, about 2 years I think. And yet as you can see people are proclaiming that I joined today to comment on this issue. Not true..... But then, what interest do abusive pack animals have in truth.
I'm not even surprised by the stupidity and arrogance on here because that's what happens when people want to rage against something they can't influence and/or comprehend. They just lash out.
Ho hum. :-)

PEGGY Wow thats some achievement. Ive seen you tell a woman on another thread about seeking a termination that poverty is no excuse not to go ahead with the pregnancy while benefit bashing/tax credit bashing single mums on other threads.

Now you have completed the misogyny hat trick by victim blaming rape survivors.

You deliberately post to demonstrate your hatred of women and its getting tiring not to mention repetitive.

Ask Basil......fantastic posts to all those who have been through horrific experiences..............I BELIEVE YOU

For all those on here trying to tell us that victims of violent crime (for that is what rape is) are somehow giving consent to that crime (run that past me again....) then please see these brilliant cartoons, particularly the last one which addresses the issue of clothing.

And anyone working with young people in school or university might be interested in the IHeartConsent website.

And finally, because it is late and I need to get to bed, please watch this video which explains 'consensual sex' is like wanting and then not wanting to drink a cup of tea. It is utterly brilliant.

Let us remember that those who rape are people filled with hate and low self-esteem. Rape is a hate crime. Sexual assault is a hate crime. A woman wearing a full hijab is not immune from haters.

I worry when my 18yo DD goes out in either her jeans and sneakers or her full party kit because I know that there are nasty people out there who might hurt her. I worry as much when she has the sneakers on as I do when she wears the high heels. Her vulnerability is not about what she is wearing. Her vulnerability is because she is a young woman and our society does not value or respect women enough to teach our young men how to behave properly towards other human beings.

In fact before I go to bed I'm going to find you a great piece I read yesterday about the CH interview..... give me a min.....

here it is - a very inciteful piece.

And for a very uninciteful piece, here is rape apologist Julia Hartley-Brewer in the Telegraph commenting on Chrissie Hynde's interview.

I was 8 years old. I'm pretty sure I wasn't dressed provocatively

(((hugs))) mimi and everyone else who has been through similar.