Tories considering benefit review for people with drug and obesity problems.

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I have to be really angry to start a thread in this topic .

Cutting benefits for people with addiction problems is surely only going to lead to them committing more crime to raise the money for drugs? Seeing as mental health support is already virtually nonexistent I can't imagine how they think this is going to work.

bbc link

AddtoBasket actually your aunt is a good case in point
cbt is v controversial as a treatment for me/cft
it wont work if enforcex
it already makes a substantial minority of people feel worse not better
it panders to the views of outsiders that it is 'all in their heads'
i can well imagine the delight of nasty members of society as people are forced into treatment programmes - i bet they dont even care if it works or makes it worse

MH and addiction therapy needs a vast injection of support. They also need some joined up thinking - my brother went through first stage rehab twice, and each time the second stage rehab placement he was meant to transfer directly into went wrong, so he fell off the wagon again while waiting.

I also find it utterly ridiculous that NHS MH services automatically refused to even start to see him about the cause of his depression until he was officially not an addict. So the sexual abuse he suffered as a child continued to eat away at him, causing him to self medicate with alcohol.

If these services can be sorted out and be accessed when needed, not months after referral, then I don't have a problem with benefit sanctions for those who refuse to even try to sort their problems out.

Taking off my loving sister of an alcoholic hat and replacing it with a tax payer hat, I was really annoyed that my brother received more than enough in benefits to keep him housed, warm, fed and still pay for a bottle of vodka a day.

I'm copying across a post I made on another thread about this. And I see the "She's refusing doctor-sanctioned treatment for M.E." has already raised it's head on this thread.

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Yes, I've been watching that one come down the line for all conditions. Shiny Dave is using the fatties and druggies as the socially acceptable thin end of the wedge.hmm

It fills me with particular horror because I have a diagnosis of M.E. No one actually knows what it is (and it's an umbrella for many conditions), and as usual the vacuum is filled by anyone's pet theory. Some of the "treatments" that have been handed out are deeply harmful. Even the ones which have been steered through NICE, with a heavy hand on the tiller.

There's a simplistic view out there that illness + magic "treatment" = all better now. I've seen it on MN: teacher saying newly diagnosed teenager should be disciplined for "failing to control" their diabetes.shock

Shiny Dave is playing on this. "Refusing help for 'treatable illness'" is going to be the next scrounger narrative. Sick people is only sick cuz they wants to be, doncha know.

We don't live in a fair society. The only way we can judge others and decide whether they are 'deserving' is when we all start from the same equal starting point.

How do you propose we all start off from an equal point? Some people are born into wealth and others into poverty. Some people are born with natural intelligence and others with lower natural intelligence or learning disabilities.
Society will never be equal.

Well, if you are offered treatment that a GP thinks is appropriate and you refuse it, is it any wonder people are going to be less keen to support you than to support those who will try anything to get back to work?

For perspective, conditions which have been diagnosed as M.E., that I know of cases of, include:

stroke
Ehler-Danlos Syndrome (genetic)
Lupus
multiple sclerosis
Lyme disease
heart conditions

And that's off the top of my head.

Some of the "treatments" prescribed by doctors for M.E. would be at best pointless, at worst very harmful, for those conditions.

Some people are less keen to support, you mean. Not all.

The people who are less keen will vote tory and the others won't.

It's not complicated.

They all just need cbt apparently pausingfly.

Get jobs (zero hours, under min wage, agency, no employment rights, who cares?) to give us more money, so we can keep more of ours. I cannot believe people still fall for their claptrap.

so what is your view then AddtoBasket?
your aunt should not receive benefits because she refuses a particular treatment?
where is consent in your model of medical treatment?
btw have you actually read up about cbt and me?

There has been talk before of limiting benefits for people who do not agree to certain medical procedures I think contraceptive implant was one?

It's really not good.

Not least of all of this is that if you are suffering from addiction issues, the only treatment that will work is one that you undergo from your choice when you are at a point where you really really want to.

"Just treat them" when talking about these issues is incredibly naive. It's just not realistic. ie it won't work if people are complying out of force, and so will be a waste of money.

I can't see this happening; he's just sounding off to divert attention from other issues. Because, for people to deny treatment, there has to be the treatment there for people to deny in the first place.

Or perhaps this means that the Govt. is proposing to actually invest in residential drug rehab units, mental health services and healthy eating programmes? What do we think? .

There has been talk before of limiting benefits for people who do not agree to certain medical procedures I think contraceptive implant was one?

That reminds me of last week's episode of "Call the Midwife"- did anybody see it? Where the bloke was caught being gay and was forced to take medication that would emasculate him, to avoid going to prison? .

ME sufferers or CFS or whatever misnomer label is on it today have been done MASSIVE damage by following the advice of cognitive therapists who think 'it's all in their heads' btw.

current research blows the idea that pushing themselves and believing they can do it is the way forward out of the water. many would call forcing a person with cfs to do what is beyond them physical abuse. that gp is not an expert in the condition and to not want to be treated for a physical illness by a non physician with a certificate in cbt is hardly refusing treatment.

It's so sad that people fall for this bullshit. If people want a group of people to target and despise for what is wrong with our society I would suggest you start looking the other way. It is not drug addicts, overweight people, alcoholics or immigrants. They want you to think that so you don't look too deeply at what they're up to. Such as:

Selling arms to the very same countries they list has having horrendous human rights records.

Giving huge contracts to weapons manufacturers before then going to work for said weapons manufacturers.

Helping rich people avoid paying tax whilst convicting poor people for the same.

And my personal favourite...

Covering up the sexual abuse and murder of some of the most vulnerable children in our society.

I could go on. But no, carry on believing that fat people who don't work are bringing society down.

so, for example, yes i can see the sense in stopping benefits to an alcoholic who refuses a place in a reputable treatment centre (so long as their dependents etc will be cared for in their absence) but what one could be talking about is saying their doctor recommends they stop drinking but they don't so take their benefits away. hmm? an alcoholic not being able to just stop drinking = refusing treatment or not acting on medical advice?

the devil is in the details.

or mr wiliams was advised to give up smoking but he did not. erm mr wiliams lives in a society where smoking is legal and tobacco companies, wholesalers and retailers and the tax man are able to make billions from the sale of a massively addictive killer substance but mr wiliams is the criminal for not being able to just stop using said substance on his doctors advice after finding out he has cancer even though we offered him some patches (which also make billions of profit for drugs companies, wholesalers, retailers and the tax man etc)?

honeybadger there isn't much point in sending an alcoholic to a treatment centre unless they want to stop drinking. Otherwise it will be a massive waste of time and money.

He's saying it to detract from the dodgy donors. Of course if he went after them and the likes of Amazon, Starbucks, Google, Boots etc he wouldn't need to demonise the poor. But he can't because they're all in it together!

also so.

alcoholic says no to treatment (they know it won't work / they don't feel they can do it due to MHPs for eg)
so benefits are stopped
person is still alcohol dependent and needs money
how do people who are at the bottom of the heap and in a state go about getting money? through means that are incredibly damaging and/or illegal
begging / prostitution / theft / mugging etc

not a result to my eyes. the addict is in a worse state and the cost to society is much higher.

I reckon if the bastards get back in we'll have work / poor houses by the end of the year, crap food included, and no additional money given so people are trapped there until they die early. That's why all their policies are aiming for

And anyway there isn't any treatment! I mean, there's just nothing around for so many of these issues. You have to be extremely ill indeed before you can get help, or impacting massively on those around you.