Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users

[DuelingFanjo]

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First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement - Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

Might be a controversial opinion but I am glad.

I am not glad

I am frickin livid

Selfish oiks win the day huh

I think this is a disgrace and makes a mockery of requiring reasonable adjustments for disabled people. What's the point of making reasonable adjustments if the people you've made them for aren't able to access the service?

Hmm. I'm not sure about this. I think the appeal judge has a point that the bus companies can't be liable for members of the public who "act selfishly and irresponsibly" but I would like to see the law made clearer and the person who chooses not to give up their space should be liable.

The trouble at the moment is that things aren't clear enough. People don't know what the law says, what the hierarchy of priority is and what to do if you need to get off a bus to avoid paying twice.

I would like to see a new law that makes it illegal and an offence punishable by fixed penalty not to vacate the wheelchair space for a wheelchair/disability buggy. A bit like blue badge spaces for cars but where other people can use the space unless required by the priority group.

I am also very disappointed with this decision.

I realise that it is a very difficult situation but to me it comes down to choice, people choose to have children and take them in a buggy on a bus, wheelchair users do not have the same choices or options.

I was glad to see this from the judge though;

"I do not, however, believe that the fact that some passengers will - albeit rarely - act selfishly and irresponsibly is a sufficient reason for imposing on bus companies a legal responsibility for a situation which is not of their making and which they are not in a position to prevent."

We cannot legislate for good manners.

That is absolutely fucking appalling!

The bus only has a space because the wheelchair users campaigned, it only has a level access point because the wheelchair users campaigned.

Is there a further point of appeal or is this it? I'm fucking livid too!

it's not a good result at all.
the judgement is all legal gobbledegook and not very clear (as far as I could see) and the press ran with the 'pushchairs cannot be forced off the bus' line...

It is absolutely appalling.

It also makes my and ds's and a lot of people's lives a lot harder. Great.

I think the judge has a point

Lord Justice Underhill said: "It has to be accepted that our conclusion and reasoning in this case means that wheelchair users will occasionally be prevented by other passengers from using the wheelchair space on the bus.

"I do not, however, believe that the fact that some passengers will - albeit rarely - act selfishly and irresponsibly is a sufficient reason for imposing on bus companies a legal responsibility for a situation which is not of their making and which they are not in a position to prevent."

BTW 'Glad' is probably the wrong word. I think it was a reasonable judgement to make.

your glad
really
I am furious
one fucking wheelchair space and your glad.
I hope the people like the op who think this ok never need that space themselves or for their child.

Note he says wheelchair space not pushchair space!

It is an absolutely disastrous ruling. Some selfish parents can sit there smugly with their sleeping baby, whilst a wheelchair user sits on the pavement in the fucking rain! It is a bloody scandal!

i do hope they do appeal and someone starts a petition

"I would like to see a new law that makes it illegal and an offence punishable by fixed penalty not to vacate the wheelchair space for a wheelchair/disability buggy. A bit like blue badge spaces for cars but where other people can use the space unless required by the priority group."

100% agree.

I think that making life unnecessariily difficult for a disabled person should be made a criminal offence. The woman who refused to fold her buggy is the one who needs to be punished rather than the bus driver. I feel that a spot of community service would be a wonderful cure for precious first bornitus.

We need video cameras to make it easier to enforce laws on forcing able bodied passengers to give up a wheelchair space. The police need to be prepared to make time assist drivers with difficult passengers.

The recent ruling makes an absolute mockery of disablity rights.

The fucking judge says the disabled should go to Parliament to ask for improvement in these cases! Like the fucking Tories give a shit, so that wouldn't get off the ground would it?

Oh dear, is this going to be a re-run of the last thread? I'm not going to post my opinion as I don't want to enter a bun fight and I think this has already been done to death.

I'm off!

What is the legal position on reserved seats, though?
I would think it's roughly equivalent.

Bus drivers shouldn't be legally obliged to police troublemakers.

This isn't a victory for selfish people, it's a victory for vulnerable employees of bus companies.

"Bus drivers shouldn't be legally obliged to police troublemakers. "

They aren't. They have the option of calling the police to deal with troublemakers.

The problem is what can the bus company do? They cannot physically remove the passenger from the space. They cannot stop the bus until they move as that risks aggression from other passengers. They cannot call the police as it is a civil matter (?).

I completely agree that wheelchairs should have priority over pushchairs, but how can that be enforced? The judge was right, as the law stands there isn't really anything a bus driver can do.

Court of Appeal judgment here

like I said, 'Glad' is the wrong word.

I would move for someone with a disability. Of course I would.
I just don't think you can legislate to make bus companies enforce it.

This is going to make things even worse now for those who use wheelchairs as people who move because they feel they must will now refuse because they know they can't be made to move.

Shocking decision.

I think the ruling was right. You cannot make the bus company responsible for enforcing.

Some people are idiots, some people are violent when confronted with their idiocy - bus drivers should not be put in harm's way to enforce this. (that is what would be asked of them if the bus companies had been held responsible for enforcement)

Their other option if they have to enforce would be to stop, park up, leave the bus and wait for an enforcement officer - leading to chaos - if people cannot rely on a bus to get them there, they will not use it.

from the judgement " It is not about whether non-wheelchair users should move out of the wheelchair space on a bus in order to accommodate a passenger in a wheelchair. Of course they should if that is possible. Nor is it about whether mothers standing in the wheelchair space with a child in a folding buggy should fold their buggies in order to make way for a wheelchair user. Of course they should if that is possible. Non-wheelchair users, unlike wheelchair users, will normally have a choice about which part of the bus to sit or stand in. Common decency and respect for wheelchair users should mean that other passengers make way for them. What is at issue is whether the bus company must have a policy to compel all other passengers to vacate the wheelchair space irrespective of the reason why they are in it, on pain of being made to leave the bus if they do not, leaving no discretion to the driver."

If everyone else on the bus wasn't spineless and stood up for the wheelchair user things would soon change. If my kids, or DH was on a bus and some selfish person was there with their buggy refusing to fold they wouldn't sit there as quiet as a mouse they'd bloody well say something.

Start shaming these selfish people into folding or moving!