Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users

[DuelingFanjo]

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First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement - Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

Might be a controversial opinion but I am glad.

I have to admit I was always worried that my folded up buggy would slide off the rack as the rack was quite shallow.

I don't know how big the separate buggy spaces are - would they accommodate a large pram or only a small umbrella fold design?

If parents want more space for buggies, let them lobby for it. If they want more storage space for fold up buggies, let them lobby for it.

It's appalling that wheelchair users lobbied for a space just for them, finally got it, and now they struggle to make use of it because others are taking it over.

Yes and I suppose if a second buggy moved into the separate wheelchair space then under the present ruling the driver could ask but not compel the parent to move.

I agree Alice.

However I would be very upset if my folded up buggy flew out of the rack behind the wheelchair space and hit a wheelchair user ( or anyone else)

AliceinWinterWonderland i have a feeling, a bad one, that the same thing will happen with the campaign for better toilets.

Buses here have a wheelchair space and a space for pushchairs (with no backrest for a wheelchair). The pushchair space fits a large pram or two small pushchairs put in sideways.

Drivers here won't let you fold a pushchair and get on. I have to go to regular hospital appointments by bus where I need a pushchair as baby has to sit in it while I'm examined and if those spaces are full the driver won't let me on; I am not given the option to fold as there is no storage room for pushchairs in the design of these buses (seats are so crammed together it would be impossible to sit in one with your pushchair). I leave the house extra early.

Yes, I can see Changing Places loos being abused.

Ah, I see cuphat. I hadn't realised on those buses there was no storage space.

On ours, there is a very small space high up for bags, but you couldn't get pushchairs in there (and most of it is taken up by a space for free newspapers!).

Theory is one thing but this thread just proves there isn't really seperate provision in practice and that is what really matters, not what 'should' be. If wheelchair users are campaigning to have this space more protected would it not be more pragmatic to say 'buggy users must not use these spaces, they must be provided with spaces of their own'? Another advantage of this approach is you will then find a lot more support amongst the buggy user fraternity for truly protected wheelchair spaces.

No, what this thread proves is that there is separate provision for wheelchair users, but that a small proportion of people choose to block them out of it with their buggies. And that a very ill advised judge decided to agree with those selfish parents for reasons best known to themselves.

All this talk about buggies and not being able/unwilling to fold them is such a non-issue. These spaces are dedicated to wheelchair users. If you are using one of those spaces and you can't make room for the wheelchair, then you get off. I'm amazed this really needs to be explained. So it might be inconvenient? Tough tits.

It's a shame this argument has become a competition between buggies and wheelchairs. Both sets of people have genuine anxiety and struggles about getting on and off buses, and in most situations are considerate of each other. And there seems to be some assumption that parents with their buggies are the most unreasonable of the lot.

Well..look at WUME's post up there about refusing to move.

Thankfully lots of the people objecting to this entitled attitude are buggy users too. It isn't a one side or other situation. Many people including me don't use wheelchairs (or buggies now) but still can see the right thing to do.

Hm maybe they need a facebook group dedicated to selfish gits who won't move for a wheelchair user. 'Click', take a photo, upload & share. Horrible thing to do, but the sort of thing people who are so selfish might understand/respond to. It's hard to teach consideration & manners to adults.

I don't think the judge was agreeing with the pushchair user. I think either he didn't want to create a precedent where the bus company is responsible for the behaviour of the passengers or he believes that under current legislation the bus driver is not responsible for the behaviour of passengers.

The conclusion is therefore that current legislation is not adequate or that the current method of provision for wheelchairs is not adequate - depending on what is agreed if the case goes further, it's up to the government to sort it out.

I think it is appalling that any parent with a buggy wouldn't move for a wheelchair - and even more appalling that the bus company now can't make them. I hope that other passengers make them feel so embarrassed they feel the need to do, what they know, is the right thing and move.
It may be inconvenient but tough! Some parents are so entitled these days- not to mention selfish.

"The judge seems to me to have thought that the needs of wheelchair users trumped all other considerations.

"If that is what he meant, I respectfully disagree."

Although I think that turn of phrase sounds a bit twatish, even if that is how judges talk.

Giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think what he means is that legally the bus driver can't be held responsible for enforcing the law, whatever the situation. However, the phrase comes too close to talking about one group's needs trumping another's and that is inflammatory.

Are the bus companies fulfilling their duty under current legislation if, following this case, they aren't really providing a space because it can't be enforced?

Also, I'm a bit 'meh' about pushchair users arguing the toss about who has more need of the space - this legislation means that the bus driver can't prevent anyone from using the space even if they just want to use it for their shopping and there is a whole queue of push chair users waiting to board.

legislation ruling

Maybe we should organise ourselves to fill the wheelchair space with shopping and only move it for a wheelchair.

Having said that I have seem people fill the buggy spaces with shopping trolleys and refuse to move them for buggies.

Does anyone know if there is more protection for wheelchair users under Scottish law?

I read our "passenger charter" from the council, who run the buses here last night. They don't even mention wheelchairs on it. I might ring them up and ask them.