Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users

[DuelingFanjo]

story

First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement - Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

Might be a controversial opinion but I am glad.

So if someone has twins, a random stranger should fold and hold her buggy for her?

And a nanny shouldn't take a job presumably if it comes with a buggy that doesn't fold??

I'm not sure you do actually as I don't have one...

No, I believe you shouldn't take the bus if you can't or won't fold your buggy.

TheFairyCaravan - that's very sad, but why does that mean you're more entitled than someone who also needs to get somewhere and has no choice but to use the buggy she was given along with her job?

The judge may believe that it's 'rarely' that people act 'selfishly and irresponsibly' but that's not borne out on this thread.

Ooh you do Georgie I've just advanced searched to make sure I'm not dreaming and it's there!

If someone hires a nanny, and expects that nanny to take the children on the bus, then that person should be providing the appropriate means of transport... as in the right kind of buggy to fold up. Not rocket science, now, is it? I would think most that can afford a nanny can afford an inexpensive buggy that folds.

And yes - we had an expensive pram, when ds1 was born, and as it was unrealistic for bus travel (when we got rid of our car), I sold it and bought a folding buggy that was more suited to folding on the bus. It's not that difficult if you employ a bit of common sense.

I suppose that's a struggle for some. Not as much of a struggle as folding a buggy, apparently, but a struggle, nonetheless.

Shit though life must be if you have twins and a non-foldable buggy to contend with, I still think someone reliant on a wheelchair for even basic mobility has it tougher.

I have been able bodied all my life and just recently snapped my achilles tendon. I am now on crutches for 8 whole weeks and I am totally aghast at just how shit the world is for people who can't just walk easily to the places they need to be in.

I would actually recommend that every single adult in this country should have to spend 2 weeks in a cast say every 5 years just so they have the smallest, tiniest insight into how breathtakingly difficult it is to live with a disability.

FairyCaravan I think you mean a second pram. I didn't replace my pram... Is that what you mean??

Do all buses have space to store a folded buggy (or 2 or 3)?

please do not say that you have TWO prams, still don't have one that folds, and are whinging about not being able to fold up on the bus because you "have no choice of prams", as that just puts you in a whole new category. (and it's not a nice one)

This is an awful ruling. I'm sorry but when my first 2 dc were tiny (15 months apart) we didn't have a car. I specifically bought a double which folded easily and handed my toddler and baby to either the driver or other passengers and folded. It's wasn't particularly easy but I managed. A person in a wheelchair doesn't have the option at all. We need the law to be changed.

Alice - I'm not talking about myself at all. I drive. (And actually I bought an easily foldable second pram for holiday.)

Does not rtft put you in an all new category too?

Sooooooooooooo.... blame the court for not making an unenforceable law rather than acknowledge it is unreasonable parents who make this whole debate necessary in the first place!

Seriously, make it law so that bus drivers MUST on pain of being prosecuted, fined etc, tell a woman with (possibly multiple) kids and a buggy to move so that a wheelchair user can get on the bus? That'll work.

Oh, and just how patronising do you think most wheelchair users think this thread is? Aaaah! Poor old wheelchair user, being made to wait for the next bus... it happens to everyone at some time or other and is not discrimination when it does happen.

The judge had absolutely no alternative but to refuse the request to pass this as law.

The only way this will work is if everyone does the right thing rather than the most convenient thing - as is the case in almost every other aspect of life!

Basically it is not down to a judge it is down to you, and me!

Don't be pedantic Georrgie second pram, replacement pram it makes no difference. The fact is you did buy a different pram, you did not have to use the gifted pram.

Actually, second and replacement are entirely different things. One is an additional one and one replaces the other.

And I was using it as an example, it's not something I've done.

I was asking about what would happen in these situations.... Should the person with the unfoldable pram just not travel?

So, if the ruling says that bus companies are not obliged to ensure a wheelchair space is usable by a wheelchair user then are they then compliant with the DDA? Providing a flat space full of buggies doesn't sound like 'reasonable adjustment'.

I don't understand how people travel with a buggy they can't fold. Round here that would leave you standing in the cold a lot, as frequently there are already two buggies on each bus, so to be allowed on you have to fold yours. I have a toddler and a newborn, take a small folding buggy and wear my sling in case I need to fold it. I would happily fold for someone who was struggling with theirs, and most definitely for a wheelchair!!

curiousgeorgie they can travel but should be prepared to cede the space, if necessary. Or take a taxi - you know, like disabled people are being forved tk do

It is discrimination if a certain group is being left waiting the vast majority of times they go out because in most areas that doesn't happen to able bodied people.

On most buses there is one wheelchair space. The only reason a wheelchair user should be left waiting is if another wheelchair user is already in that space.

It is a bonus if it is free for parents but they do not have a right to use it at the expense of those it is designated for.

Actually, with the twins argument and whether someone else should fold for them - ideally, people should make a quick assessment of who needs the space most. So if someone with a toddler in a buggy sees someone with newborn twins wanting to get on, the sensible thing to do would be to take the toddler out of the buggy and fold it. If someone with a buggy with no child but lots of shopping bags (I see this quite a lot) sees anyone with a baby in a buggy wanting to get on, they should take their shopping out and fold. And if someone in a wheelchair needs to get on then parents should fold their buggy/get off and get another bus.

Obviously those are simple examples, and there will be all sorts of complications (babies on oxygen is one that's been raised on previous threads, or parents with mobility issues and buggies) - but there should be a basic principle of working out if someone else needs the space more than you do. And to widen the thread, it doesn't just include pushchairs - some buses here get clogged up with people with suitcases in the wheelchair section.

I think the judges (there were 3) are getting some unfair stick on here. This was an appeal by the bus company against an earlier Court ruling that it should pay £5,500 in compensation to the man in the wheelchair. These judges (in the Court of Appeal) felt that the first judge had misapplied the Equality Act 2010 and that the Act does not have provisions to force bus companies to have a policy to compel passengers to make space available. So... the bus company had not acted unlawfully. This was a point of law.

We don't want judges making up the law. We want Parliament doing that and the judges suggested that campaigners might want to get the law changed.

This is idiotic
I understand the ruling but to have rules protecting disability, needs and access there must be some bite behind them

Simply, if you have a pram you should be able to fold it, leave the bus if a disabled traveller needs the space or if you find it too difficult rethink and find another way of travelling

Disability trumps all other situations where space is needed for travel

I am disabled and I use a buggy. It is not easily collapsed because on bad days I struggle strength and dexterity which means I cannot safely hold the baby while I collapse it, I cannot comfortable perform the steps necessary to collapse it and then once it is collapsed I cannot lift it. If I have any shopping or any of my other DC with me then it compounds the issue even further.

I cannot use a sling, it is not good for me or safe for the baby.

I cannot use an umbrella fold pushchair because the wheels are too small on them which means they're harder for me to push.

I cannot leave the bus and wait for the next one because I cannot stand about for long periods, especially in the cold or in icy conditions.

So even though I'd probably be seen as selfish or unreasonable, if I was travelling alone and there was no one willing to help me then I wouldn't collapse my pushchair to make way for a wheelchair because I need the space too.

I've been the person at the side of the road unable to board because the space has been full and I can't collapse my buggy and I've had no choice but to wait for the next bus. It sucks and it's shitty but that's life.

If bus companies were to do as some of the people on this thread have suggested and make ALL pushchairs fold before boarding then I would become incredibly isolated as I wouldn't be able to go anywhere.