Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users

[DuelingFanjo]

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First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement - Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

Might be a controversial opinion but I am glad.

It is discrimination if a certain group is being left waiting the vast majority of times they go out because in most areas that doesn't happen to able bodied people.

Yes, that would be discrimination. Vast and majority being the key words.

But if the bus company provides wheelchair access and the vast majority of wheelchair journeys are accommodated it is not - I don't know about your bus company, but the second of those options is absolutely the norm here.

When it does not happen it is because some parent gets arsey and no-one tells them to fuck off! Just as happens when an older or disabled person gets on and the witless oik in the front seat doesn't move for them!

But it would be an unenforceable law if it were to be passed - even less so than using a phone whilst driving as the use is incontrovertible when seen!

But when you speak to wheelchair users they are often left standing waiting, and generally because of the selfishness of others. So they are being discriminated against and that is going to get worse thanks to this rediculous ruling

I think people are being a bit unrealistic if they expect a bus driver to enforce a policy that isn't backed by legislation. The ruling makes it clear that currently the law does not protect the wheelchair space - arguably the law needs to change.

DH used to drive a bus in London and was he the victim of assaults and abuse (as were most of his friends who have done the job). Additionally, they were disciplined if they ran late without good reason so stopping the bus until someone folds the buggy isn't always an option, if there is no legal obligation on the buggy user to do so.

Most people are decent and thoughtful but it's not for a bus driver to deal with those who aren't.

apologies for the added (insensitive) word standing in that first sentence

Are they? Or is that human nature having a moan?

Yes, it will get worse, but because we as human beings are becoming more self obsessed and care less. We do the discrimination, not the bus companies. They provide wheelchairs spaces and signs that explain them and staff who will ask people to move. WE the public choose to disregard all of that and refuse to be discommoded!

The ruling won't change any of that!

so many people on this thread that refuse to read properly.

On my buses there simply isn't a choice to fold. There is nowhere to put a folded pram anymore and you are not allowed to stand with a buggy in the aisle. It has to be in a designated space.

It's the design of the buses that's wrong.

And as well as reading properly, it might be wise not to jump to conclusions. I spent almost 5 years pushing my mum around in a wheelchair. She had dementia and osteoarthritis. I am well aware of the problems faced by wheelchair users.

It doesn't stop me seeing the other person's point of view or seeing the bigger picture.

Like I said, if I could fold, I would. The buses need to go back to accommodating folded buggy's.

There is nowhere to put a folded pram

Put it in the seat area, I have done that before when there is no other option. It is possible if people are willing to make the effort.

Buses are more accommodating to folding buggies now then they have ever been, yet more people complain now because they may have to go out of their way to accommodate others.

No we are not allowed to take up a paying space with a folded buggy.

Even the under 5's are not allowed a seat if it's busy - because they are free to travel they have to sit on laps of a paying adult.

There isn't room to put a buggy in front of you - you would have to put it next to you and take a space.

Just because you did it maybe once or twice doesn't mean everybody can do it all the time.

How on earth are my buses more accommodating?

Where did that nugget of information come from?

It's not my reality that's for sure.

The buggy space has gone and now there is a small luggage space which is chest height and normally full of shopping.

I'd like to see a photo of a bus that's 'more acoomodating than ever'

I wonder if they would have come to the same conclusion about laws being misapplied if the case had been brought before them before we hosted the Paralympics.

Alice i was going to say the same as you They cant expect disabled people to go out to work if they cant even get to a potential workplace in the first place.

Round here the buses are one every hour and i live in an Essex town.

Given that less that 20 years ago prams couldnt be accomodated at all on buses I would say they are a hell of a lot more accomodating.

And its probably worth remembering that the reason they can now accomodate prams - because of the hard work campaigning by those after access for wheelchair users. I do think a lot of the more self centered parents forget how much easier the work of disability rights campaingers have made lives for parents with pushchairs in so many areas.

In all likelihood, bus drivers who want to stop so that a wheelchair user is allowed space, will still do it. In the same way that those who don't want to, will continue not to do it.
But... the company is not legally required to enforce it. Which means that they can't be sued if someone refuses to vacate the wheelchair space.

Your're taking away the storage for folded buggy's and then having a go at parents for not folding buggy's ... sorry for not being more appreciative

And I think you'll find prams have been on going on buses for a lot longer than 20 years ... and the key to that little success story was storage space for folded buggys

When my cousin had her first DD, she was given an old pram by a neighbour. It was a 90's style thing, very old and rickety, with a metal shopping basket thing underneath. Basically impossible to fold. She and her partner weren't flush, so she did all the visiting and shopping etc on the bus. She really didn't have extra cash for a collapsible buggy. I used to help her shop on a Saturday as a young teen and we never used to get her baby out the buggy, because there was no point because it wouldn't fold!

WUME is correct with the buggy policy on London Transport. I am an employee with them, and there is no space for folding buggies. Placing them in a luggage rack is unsafe.

Bus drivers should not have to enforce it; they are already open to huge abuse from the general public. Most of you are reasonable people and wouldn't be able to imagine the levels of violence used. Having to enforce something like this would leave them open to more abuse. More double decked public transport, with the bottom deck totally accessible for both buggies and wheelchairs, with flexible seating, and the top deck all fixed seating would be a start.

WUME is right. It used to be impossible to get anything on wheels on the bus, because the door had steps up, and a hand rail dividing he space. You had to fold, and no wheelchair user had any chance of getting on.

But there was a luggage rack. My local company has an official policy which stipulates that only buggies which fold are permitted on the bus. There isn't anywhere to put a folded pushchair though! Frankly, I think it's a stupid bus design. And I see no reason to get arsey about calling it that.

There should be a wheelchair space and a luggage rack for pushchirs.

Or pressure the bus companies to introduce more buses like this one. Buggies on the left, wheelchairs on the right, everyone is happy.

I can't see properly here, but I think I've seen those buses in Cardiff. I was well impressed!

New buses cost money. That means bus ticket prices go up, and they are already ridiculously high. And it takes time to get them.

Not sure the bus companies will say the number of passengers justifies the expense.

I take buses infrequently and almost always with a buggy, which theoretically folds.

I've never had to move or fold, although I have had to wait for the next bus a few times when the space was already in use.

But if a wheelchair user wanted to board the bus, I'd get off, because I am not an arsehole that space is no longer available to me and getting off would be less hassle for me than folding, not least because it wouldn't wake the baby...

(a) there are big signs on the bus saying the space is for buggies only when no wheelchair needs to be there, and reminding passengers of the wheelchair user's legal entitlement to that space. I can't recall the exact wording but it is firm and unambiguous. It's really good.

(b) there is nowhere you could possibly stow a folded buggy even if you wanted to as the seats are so close together and there is no luggage rack or compartment at all.

I can see that the legal judgement accurately reflects the relevant legislation, but I am disappointed by the reporting of it

One has to wonder why so many people are arseholes.

Wheelchair users should have priority, they will need access permanently, whereas being a pushchair user is temporary

So say the bus was full no space for a lady with a baby and pushchair to fold down and move seats should the mother and baby get off the bus and let the wheelchair user on? Will she get a refund or ticket to get next bus free? Does the bus driver decide which mother should get off the bus to make way for disabled person should there be two mothers with a pram?

I had my kids in the 90s. My pram folded with one hand, it had a button on the handle. My buggy folded really easily, they weren't impossible to fold easily. All my friends had similar style pushchairs and prams, and we folded them to get on the bus because we had to. The buses weren't low level access so you had to get up steps to get on!

Or in my case does the bus driver chuck one disabled person off the bus in favour of another? We could play a game of Disability Top Trumps next to the ticket machine.