Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users

[DuelingFanjo]

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First Bus wins wheelchair court judgement - Bus companies are not required by law to force parents with buggies to make way for wheelchair users in designated bays on vehicles, senior judges ruled.

Might be a controversial opinion but I am glad.

It may not be law yet, but I hope many campaign for it to be.
Also, it doesn't have to be law for drivers to ask for buggies to be folded down, but thank goodness some drivers have the brains to do this.

Samcro oh dear god. So those adults that cannot work due to their disabilities will not be able to get a car through motability and will have to use the bus (fat chance getting on the bus now though!) or a taxi for appointments, therapy, and so on. And they can't afford a taxi as so many are sitting at or below poverty level as they're on benefits. (or waiting for PIP to kick in, which I hear is obscenely backed up)

I realise it's a smaller group, but shouldn't they have the same rights to a vehicle??

okay -this is shit thing, but I do understand why the bus company can't be liable.

So what about a requirement that bus drivers provide written evidence that they couldn't carry the disabled passenger due to buggy related entitlement. You could issue the drivers with a book of receipts...Then at least anyone missing a Job centre appointment could have the means to prove their case?

It would also take time to write out, which might cause some peer pressure...you could also ask the buggyzilla to countersign to say they refused to make space.

yes I see your point
but that means that the person in the wheelchair will have to wait as well.
not on the bus of course as they can't get on the bus!
whilst they are made to feel worthless.

A triumph for the sharp-elbowed and selfish. Absolutely disgusting. I am ashamed to live in a country that treats disabled people like they are at the bottom of the pile. What on earth happened to all the legislation we had around disabled access? Trumped by parents with oversized prams, clearly.

I thought the ruling was a disgrace. They should designate a space for wheelchairs and nobody should be allowed to stand in this space or put a buggy in in it. That's the way forward because of selfish entitled people. This has made me furious.

Why should the disabled have to get a note from the bus driver saying they couldn't get on the bus? How many will they have to get, 3-4 as the buses just keep saying no room? And if the bus driver says he doesn't have time? The other person won't sign, of course they won't! Talk about making them feel like a schoolchild, having to get a note because they're tardy.

I do not understand this "cannot enforce manners" nonsense. It's not manners they're enforcing - it's the rights of the wheelchair user to use the space (that they FOUGHT to get, only to have it usurped by the pushchair user).

It's a tough one as the able-bodied public blocking access to space made available specifically for disabled passengers is wrong and unfair but expecting bus drivers to police the actions of the public is also unfair, you can't fix one unfairness by creating another.

A small consolation is having it officially declared that people blocking disabled access are acting "selfishly and irresponsibly."

Easily solved by requiring all pushchairs to fold on the bus. Done. None will be in the wheelchair spot, except those that are for disabilities or SNs.

The ruling means that bus drivers are not required by law to force buggies off the bus.

It doesn't mean that individual bus companies can't make it their policy to do so if they wish.

It doesn't mean that drivers can't still ask pushchairs to fold or get off the bus, or refuse to drive off until they do.

It just acknowledges that it can't legally be made the driver's responsibilty. If the driver decides he doesn't want to make someone leave the bus, he can't be prosecuted for that decision.

Have to say - I never took a buggy on a bus. I was too scared because they are always so full/ Sling or sat on my lap all the way.

Rephrased from a wheelchair users perspective and potential consequences:

"Have to say - I never take my wheelchair on a bus. I was too scared because they are always so full. I rarely leave my house alone, I can't work as I have no accessible public transport and struggle to even make medical appointments. I feel increasingly isolated and excluded from society because I just can't rely on being able to travel if a parent with a pushchair has got there first."

What it DOES mean is that people will see the reports of that ruling, and become belligerent saying "I know my rights - the court says you can't make me move."

Don't kid yourself. This is a bad thing.

It just acknowledges that it can't legally be made the driver's responsibilty. If the driver decides he doesn't want to make someone leave the bus, he can't be prosecuted for that decision.

The bus companies will leave it up to the drivers to enforce. The drivers will not enforce it. And the wheelchair users will be sitting by the side of the road.

Bears that should include or another wheel chair user has, I imagine that must happen too?

I suppose at least the legal position for bus companies has been clarified, I assume this means that it would be a civil matter between the person refusing to move and the wheelchair user needing access?

"Rephrased from a wheelchair users perspective and potential consequences: "

not rephrased - completely changed.

I can see why you did that but it's not a re-phrasing of what I said.

Not once have I said that people with push-chairs have an equal right to these spaces, I totally get why people with a disability (and others) would be angry that people are so rude sometimes but I still don't think it's something you can legislate to force a bus driver to enforce.

IMO if the wheelchair users have a right to that space (and they fought for them, so yes they have a right to it), then I think that if the bus is not going to enforce the matter by making them move, then they need to make sure the pushchair is not in the space to begin with - fold 'em all.

Totally agree with you Alice. No-one should be in the wheelchair space unless they are in a wheelchair or a SN buggy.

Fanjo - the first sentence rephrases. The second is the consequences, which are far greater than for parents with babies. And that is how I was starting to feel when I had to rely on public transport.

siarie - yes, but statistically far less likely. In 7 years of being a wheelchair user relying on buses, being tutted at by buggy users in the space happened pretty much weekly. Another wheelchair user maybe once a year.

These kind of comments are rife on that article... just shows you how awful society is in general now...

Good decision. It's high time disabled people where pulled back into line. They have been allowed to get way to far ahead of themselves.

Should clarify based on the ruling "a selfish and irresponsible parent with a pushchair has got there first."

The judge was right to say the law needs to intervene here. If refusing to vacate a designated wheel chair space was a crime punishable by fixed penalty that would be a good start. Existing anti-social behaviour laws could be amended rather than having a whole new Act of parliament.

Instead of bemoaning how this particularly judgement will make things harder (because of people too stupid to understand the ruling who may think it gives them carte blanche to do what they like) why not start/sign a petition or lobby your MP for a proper, criminal law?

I think one important point is always overlooked in this debate.

And that is that buggy pushers didn't choose to roll on, roll off. They didn't choose to be in competition with wheelchairs for spaces.

This was the bus companies idea. They removed the buggy compartment and created roll on, roll off to speed up the process.

I would happily fold like my mum did years ago - but there isn't the space to put the buggy like there used to be.
Also roll on, roll off means you are not ready to collapse like you used to be. I remember my older sister used to get all her shopping bags off, take the baby out and collapse the buggy before the bus even arrived.

It's not the buggy's owners fault. its the bus companies.

The buses I get are so packed that I stand all the way most days. There is no way I could hold the buggy, baby and changing bag (let alone any shopping) safely.

And the luggage space is at chest height so a big lift (and a lot of strength) is needed to get the buggy up there in the first place - and the space is so small there normally isn't enough room - and you risk squashing other people's shopping.

They need to bring back those tall, narrow slots that you just propped your buggy up inside.

Then more people would fold.

I'm disabled although not a wheelchair user. it is difficult enough to get service providers to adhere to the law without idiotic rulings like this.

I now feel many other businesses will get away with discrimination by shrugging their shoulders and saying 'oh we can't force anyone to move etc'.

Totally agree that 'no unfolded pushchairs on bus' would be a good policy!