Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

labslondon samg76 I could post the links where the jewish leadership ignored pleas from those in concentration camps because pursuing their ideal of israel had to come before mere humanity towards their own people..

Please not this again - I thought this had been dealt with already (see the posts from 2 December on this thread).

Do you have any links for such offensive and ludicrous claims labslondon (from reputable historians, not just any old bonkers stuff you've stumbled across online)?

Oh Piglet I am not even discussing untruths with you anymore, I researched some of the "quotes" you has posted earleir, they are either misquotes or made up and as far as discussing atrocities I don't see you replying to any I mentioned?????

You spread lies and untruths to spread hate, I want people to live in peace and look for a solution you want to look for blame and that way there will never be peace but of course that is not what you are preaching

Morning everyone

We need some peace and love on this thread, please.

You would not believe how many incoming reports we've had about posts on this thread in the past few days.

We know this is a very heated issue that lots of people feel very strongly about, but if it continues to cause huge amounts of work for us we might end up having to suspend the thread altogether, and/or ban some users (other than outright racist trolls, who've already been dealt with) - which we very much don't want to do.

Final warning please folks - please stick to the Guidelines. No personal abuse, no inflammatory posting, no racism and blanket derogatory statements about entire nations and groups of people, and please remember that while you may not agree with other users' opinions, we do ask MNers to be respectful of each others' rights to hold different opinions.

Thanks
MNHQ

Again I state this is MumsNet, I am a mother, I wish my child to grow up in a world of understanding, not hate, I am confident my child has a good view and understanding of people, I always try to explain both sides of any conflict/argument, I do not believe you have the same outlook, in fact I am convinced you do not

The solution has been suggested. Obey international law. Stop apartheid policies. Get to grips with what equality means and return to the Palestinians what is theirs.

Which bit of the above is unreasonable?

Thank you Rowan, let us hope people take notice of this

precisely sabrina. it is disenguous to talk about two parties needing to sit down and talk peace whilst one side is still committing war crimes and the other is enduring inhumane conditions inflicted on them.

that's not 'bashing' anyone.

that is pointing out that to get to a point of peace discussions you have to first be at a point of obeying international law and granting human rights. how do you sit equally at a negotiating table when you don't even have basic human rights and your people are still dying under the oppression inflicted upon them?

it is bizarre that you see pointing out war crimes and illegal practices as 'israel bashing' unless again you see israel as inherently illegal and war crimes as some essential part of it's essence.

put really simply human rights are RIGHTS - not something you have to earn or jump through hoops a, b and c for. you don't negotiate for human rights and not to have war crimes committed against you. that's just a right.

that right has to be observed before any negotiations can take place. for their to be any point negotiating you have to be negotiating with people who at the very least agree to follow international law.

Let's hope that posters joining MN to post hateful anti-Islamic and racist comments can stop now. I've had to report several, all thankfully deleted.

Again HoneyBadger I agree it is bizarre that you will not condemn Hamas and terrorist actions?????????? You will only condemn Israel?????????

i am not condoning hamas actions but i can see how if a people are abused, deprived of basic human rights, subjected to war crimes etc for decades on end and without a legitimate military or help from the international community it is basically inevitable that they will resort to fighting back in ways that are desperate and destructive.

i am not supporting hamas, i am supporting people and pointing out that if you apply enough pressure for enough time without relent upon a people you will see behaviour emerging that you don't like.

I condemn the shooting of rockets into Israel. Happy now???????????????????

However, the disproportionate, heavy handed approach by the IDF is unforgiveable. I condemn it utterly. The people of Gaza are being oppressed, their human rights to food and medical aid are being abused. They are being forced to live in inhumane conditions.

It is not an equal fight. The IDF have breached International Law. They are bombing and shooting and imprisoning children. Children.

this is not rocket science.

if you abuse and abuse and abuse eventually your victims will come out fighting with whatever they can use. if you have nothing left to lose you become really fucking dangerous.

none the less that danger is like a pin prick compared to carpet bombing an open air prison.

"But for the hate marches to proclaim "from the river to the sea" disturbs me, it really does". That is a peaceful chant, you skip over the entire essence of peaceful campaigning by giving it the image you have of pro Palestinian activism - much like every other opinion on here which is pro Israel - no room for Palestinians.

i think people need to imagine how they would respond and who they would become if it was them.

if you had seen your grandfather heartbroken at being torn from the land his family had farmed for generations and his olive trees bulldozed by 'settlers', if you had seen your parents killed in bombings, if you had seen your neighbours bombed in their sleep, if you had seen children shot in the road for allegedly throwing a stone, if you had lived with bombs raining all around you every couple of years, if you had carried toddlers with their legs blown off to hospitals only to find they don't even have bandages because of the blockades, if you had buried dead in mass graves every few years..... etc. what would you be like? what would you be capable of? how would you feel about the people doing it to you?

this isn't a game or a theoretical or ideological fancy - this is literally what might have been your life if you were born in that place and time with that ethnicity.

what do you think you would have left to lose? what might you be capable of? if even a fraction of those things happened to you now how much medication and therapy do you think you'd need to avoid just hanging yourself from hte nearest beam?

i honestly think it's a wonder that palestinians haven't all strapped bombs to their chest you know?

i am desperately sad for those caught in 'terrorist' attacks but in the big picture i cannot guarantee that if all of those things had happened to me and were the fabric of my existence with no end in sight i wouldn't be willing to do some equally crazed and extreme.

QnBoudi Here's the view of an articulate, respected and educated druze citizen of Israel on racism and democracy in his state:
Your link didn't work but hopefully this one does:
www.haaretz.com/opinion/1.631993
Although I don't agree with his call to boycott the election - wouldn't politics shift even further to the right? I think there could be better ways of tackling discrimination.

Alas, Sabrina, you can give Nipper the condemnation of violence by all sides that she demands, but she cannot bring herself to acknowledge the shelling by an Israeli gunboat of children playing football on a beach, or Israeli artillery shelling a family picnic, or an Israeli soldier shooting an unarmed Palestinian farmer trying to work his fields in tbe shadows of Israel's Apartheid Wall. She even makes a weak attempt to claim that these atrocities were not carried out by Israeli forces.

I am going to work now, but you disgust me how you justify terrorism, your desperately sad words following seem insincere, you are not a peaceful person, again you show your true colours

SamG76

You yesterday smeared Palestinians as Not Innocent by referring to a Palestinian leader who allied himself with Nazis and was involved in a rebellion against British forces.

I do not share your view that a nation can be condemned by the actions of an individual. If it could, would you smear Israelis equally because one of their leaders was a murdering terrorist who killed British soldiers?

oh widen your view nipper. it's really good for your mental health to see bigger pictures and contexts.

the world is beautiful in colour.

what would be wonderful would be to hear from israeli peace activists on here - wish some of those people who dared to go on marches supporting the palestinians or trying to prevent the evictions of arabs from their homes in jerusalem would join. i would love to talk to them.

Thb, 'if you abuse and abuse and abuse eventually your victims will come out fighting with whatever they can use' - it is even more basic than that to people in general - one has the right to self defence. In islam, one has the right to defend one's property, that is all Palestinians are doing.

in fact does anyone know of any forums where israeli peace activists hang out or campaign? or is it too dangerous for them to do so under the current regime?

would be great to invite some on here to talk to us about what they are doing and what it's like on the ground for them.