Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

Pro-Israel Jewish lobby in US is very influential. And some of it shockingly extreme. If you think I am wrong look at Joan Rivers outbursts of hate.

US academics complain of censorship and bias in Universities.

(that was a reply to Harry's question.

No doubt I will be accused of anti-Semitism for answering it.)

Why wouldn't there have been an IS?

Honestly, I think the US interest in Israel isn't to do with Jews. If you were Jewish, I think you'd get why hearing about how the Jewish lobby is influential sends a real jolt to your heart, the history behind it all. And, really, it isn't. If anything, it's the anti-Muslim, anti-Arab, Islamophobic (sp) supporters, often religious Christians, I believe. A very, very powerful bunch.

It's because it's in the ME, they prefer people they consider more Western. Israel, not Palestine, is a stable country, good economy etc and having that presence is very desirable. The fact that it's government are killing people is 'by the by', considering the human rights abuses the US government has supported previously (and had in it's own country).

Israel is very smoke and mirrors. My cousin married a Yemeni Israeli man (we're Jewish). The racism going on, between Israeli citizens and Jews, is appalling. If you're Ethiopian, you're treated like shit. And let's not forget the forced/hidden adoptions and birth control/sterilisation which Ethiopian and Yemeni Jews faced.

Sorry, that sounded like I was comparing the last bit to what is happening in Gaza! I'm not, but I think there is a lot of prejudice and discrimination hidden very carefully from outsiders, not just what is happening in Gaza. There's a lot of comments by a lot of people about how Israel is accepting to those inside Israel, if not in Palestine, but that's not true- not to Palestinians, not to many Jews, it's a very divided society imo.

Schlep, what do you mean about adoptions and sterilisations? Was that a while back?

Hmm, just done a quick search. Seems it was outed Jan 2013 in relation to immigrating Jews of African origin, given (knowingly? Under duress?) 3-month shots of depo-provera. More references to nazi policies and eugenics. (Permit me to mention those words without causing offence!) What I noticed in the press though, is that for every report of this (and it was seemingly first aired on Israeli TV), there are about 4 denials. How can there never be a middle ground? Is it not possible for an official acknowledgement of any wrongdoing, albeit with whatever mitigating circumstances? There's always either a justification or total denial.

I have very little doubt about it having happened, from the Yemenis I know, tbh. I agree about the justification, or, when there is no way of justifying it, denial. It happening with Palestine too. Once the government can't justify what is happening to Palestinians, Gaza or the West Bank, they just deny anything is really happening.

and realistically if there had been no Israel there would be no IS

Sorry, but what is realistic about this ludicrous conclusion? The West were interfering in the ME well before 1947. In Lebanon, the Druze, Christians and Muslims have been merrily beating the c**p out of each other for at least 150 years. The Sunnis and Shia ditto for at least 1000. But let's just blame the Jews, eh!

it wasn't about blaming the jews - i think we've done this a million times now. talking about the actions and effects of the state of israel is not equable to 'blaming ''the'' jews'. there are jewish people all over the world of different classes, ethnicities, nationalities, political leanings and attitudes towards the state of israel. israel does not equate to a mythical body called "the" jews. it is just a nation state.

that's horrific about the eugenics but hardly surprising - there are many strands of ethnic cleansing and always the elite controlling class at the centre has a very narrow idea of what constitutes 'us'. if you take nazi germany as an example yes the jews, gays and some other groups were totally fucked and demonised but even within the remaining 'acceptable' german people there was still an idealised 'aryan race'.

it may be dressed up as being a 'jewish' issue but it's common garden racism at the end of the day with the usual hierarchy of peoples with the 'least like us' at the extreme end of the beating stick but a distinct pecking order of privilege and disadvantage above that level too. to divide and rule humans it can't be as simple as x against y in case x notices that a few of you are profiting massively at their expense, x has to be made smaller and more fragmented and to squabble amongst themselves as well as uniting to hate y.

THB - Instead of blaming the Jews for everything that happens, which is an antisemitic canard, it just so happens that you're blaming the Jewish state for matters that are absolutely nothing to do with it. Why not blame Turkey (which would be closer to the truth), or Azerbaijan, or Mongolia?

it's essentially always an elite few who really profit and use the rhetorics of hate/superiority/inferiority etc at a myriad of levels to keep the people oppressed fighting with each other rather than noting the real enemy to peace and prosperity.

that elite few in this case will include plenty of non jews, hence the worldwide backing. this isn't about judaism - it's the same old same old of worldwide elites with the usual enlisting of tribalism amongst the masses by dressing it up as about religion or ethnicity.

THB - if the Israelis didn't want the Yemenites or Ethiopians, why did they spend huge amounts of cash to rescue them in the first place? And why were there cheering crowds welcoming them at the airport? Obviously there have been issues with integration, but they're not too dissimilar to those suffered by minorities in Western states.

please stop saying 'the Jews' like they're some homogenous lump of people.

Which are the actions you have in mind, that are nothing to do with the State of Israel, but for which Israel has been blamed on here?

it reminds of old people saying, the thing about the Gays.... or the Blacks... or the Arabs. This mythology of all people of one orientation, colour, ethnicity or nationality being able to be spoken of as a collective whole is the very core of racism and virtually every war to date.

PJ - I did put the quote at the top of my original post, but will repeat it below for your convenience:

and realistically if there had been no Israel there would be no IS

I honestly don't see how Israel caused IS. To say that is ignoring the complex history of Westerners in Iraq and Syria, and also ignores the history of extremist Islam in the ME. It's common for extremism to increase in times of war, revolution, conflict etc, it isn't to do with Israel. I could blame IS on many countries and groups of countries- Western Europe and the US do really need to take a large portion of the blame, if we're saying anyone is responsible for IS' creation (apart from IS), way more than Israel. And Saudi Arabia and many rich ME countries who are encouraging extremism in the ME and are funding IS too. Israel? Don't see it.

I say 'the Jews' (as a Jewish person), because we are all connected as Jews. I wouldn't say 'all Jews think' or claim to represent all Jews either. A lot of people do see anyone Jewish as Ashkenazi and white.

just for clarification i didn't say israel directly caused IS but that it likely wouldn't exist without the existence of israel and policies and actions that came out of that having happened. yes there's been a lot of western interference in the region but realistically the creation of israel and the displacement of tons of palestinians into neighbouring countries is HUGE.

israel's invasions into neighbouring countries and lobbying upon western policies to the middle east clearly have consequences in terms of destabilising and creating a sense of loss of autonomy and having such an anti muslim, anti arab and well militarised (and hardly reluctant to show it) force in the midst of an arab muslim region funded and backed by the west clearly creates consequences.

my point really was that the look over here at IS, syria or whatever other detraction has been thrown of us relies upon pretending that israel and it's creation and behaviour and policies isn't directly enmeshed in those situations.

not a simple causal a causes b relationship maybe but definitely an integral part of a matrix of events and forces that creates the ground out of which b grows and flourishes.

No, I think Israel has a fairly small part in that. if there had been no israel there would be no IS seems to pretty much directly blame Israel, fwiw, but leaving that aside, are you seriously blaming Israel for the problems in the ME? The displacement of the Palestinians was another problem in a whole sea of problems the ME is and was facing. It didn't cause a dictator in Syria, a revolution and the rise in extremism which is common under authoritarian regimes, or Saddam Hussein and the destabilisation of Iraq, or the Taliban, or Al Qaeda. They didn't destabilise the rest of the ME to that extent, at all.

in really simple terms israel is a massive immigration issue. in europe we have rising 'extremist' groups using immigration as a catalyst. how much more would that be the case if rather than immigration being dispersed throughout europe with some degree of assimilation and acceptance of native laws and citizenship those immigrants had been given a country, dispersed the people from within it and created a caste system within it's boundaries including the equivalent of gaza and the actions taken upon it? if that group of citizens had major contributors from say russia who made it the biggest military force in the region and sanctioned it's invasion of surrounding european countries and endemic racism against europeans?

how likely in those circumstances would it be that instead of little extremist parties popping up and spreading a bit of anti immigration for 'our nation' rhetoric there would instead be created a massive movement of 'europeanism' and a sense of a need for us europeans to resist russian interference in our lands and fight against the evil imperialists who wanted our destruction?

even if the land russia had given to the immigrants was only the size of luxemburg if it had a military force such as israel's, had invaded various neighbouring countries, expressed rhetoric about all europeans being 'snakes' and had massive influence upon world policy how much riper would the conditions be for an extremist version of europeanism to emerge and take a popular hold?

there was the word 'realistically' prefixing that quote you've made of me. it may not be massively explicit but the inference is there from that that it's not a direct causal relationship of a, and only a, directly caused b.

THB - your analysis ignores the fact that well over half the immigrants to Israel came from Arab states, so were ME citizens in the first place. And the Jewish population of Israel is negligible compared to Egypt, let alone the other Arab states.

The idea that without Israel the Arab states would all be paragons of democracy and freedom is laughable. There would just be another c**p state. The only difference is that non-one would care because they wouldn;t be able to blame the Jews Zionists Israelis for it.

Sorry, I don't know why, but I just can't get your words into my head (feeling really off today, and can't take anything in) but wanted to reply quickly. Honestly, Israel is one of the smaller ME countries (I think around 10th out of 16 for population, but not including Palestine in that).

We can't talk about an Israel within Europe. It is within the ME, in an area where a sizeable amount of countries are in the middle of a conflict, recovering from a conflict, are non democratic, or only recently democratic. It isn't putting a violent country into the middle of a group of largely peaceful, non threatening countries, replacing decades of peace. Before the official creation of Israel, there was some comparativelt minor unrest- pogroms in Israel etc, and Palestine is unlikely to have been unique in the ME and escaped decades of conflict or extremism (not that it makes it right, I mean), because the West would have got involved (because it can't seem to leave the ME alone, even when it's peaceful). Israel is hated by many ME countries, but it small fry to them even then, and they only give a fuck if they can use it to justify anti semitism or when they're deciding to ignore the plight of the Palestinians. They have their own massive internal problems and only in some bits of Jordan are those caused by Israel/Palestine.