Part 6: Israeli-Palestinian conflict(986 Posts)
Sorry, lost the end of the thread there!
Just marking my place. Will come back.
Just catching up on today's news. Al Jazeera has covered a demo in Tel Aviv, thousands of protesters protesting against the ceasefire and negotiations here.
What exactly do they want then? The bombs to keep falling until there isn't a Palestinian left alive in Gaza?
The Guardian has also reported here that young people will no longer be able to serve with human rights group B'Tselem as an alternative to military service, due to it's anti-war stance.
Also been steady reports over the last few days of murders, shootings and assaults against West Bank Palestinians by the IDF.
I saw that Back how depressing.
Channel 4 also just been investigating the murder by an IDF sniper of Salem Shamaly. The footage is incredibly distressing. I see the "most moral army in the world" is living up to it's usual high standards in it's treatment of unarmed civilians.
Backinthering, that's awful. Have enough lives not been lost
Apart from the 'moral' right to resist, as Lynda Brayer (an Israeli human rights lawyer) has pointed out, the Palestinians actually have a legal right to resist. criticallegalthinking.com/2012/11/19/palestinian-resistance-the-political-social-and-human-right-of-self-defense/ lays out some stark legal facts on 'terrorists' and the creation of the State of Israel.
Is it surprising that all the settlers agreed to move out? Aside from the compensation, just how much did they know about the forthcoming siege and bombardments? Israel wasn't moving them out to make space for Palestinians, was it? It wasn't showing willing or compromising in the slightest. It was simply moving its citizens to safety before 'raining down' its own version of 'terror' (which were in fact illegal actions) on those who were left caged in.
Back that's v v depressing. But doesn't surprise me.
To start the thread with a positive story here's one which made me smile: www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/20/bradford-synagogue-saved-muslims-jews
A joint collaboration by Muslims and Jews to save a lovely synagogue in Bradford. It's a lovely piece of news.
That is lovely somewheresafe
And after that small chink of light, here's another harrowing report about illegal weapons (that we probably sold them/helped them acquire) and the longer term effect of the phosphorous they used last time. I hope to god they don't get away with it again. It's just too sickening to contemplate.
"Hamas DNA" my arse. I suspect a long term plan aimed at stopping the birth of more "snakes". Really, that's the only way I can understand these actions. Why else would you knowingly use these weapons, against the law, if it wasn't to achieve the obvious inevitable outcomes?
Sorry, not really one to go to sleep on.
somewheresafe that was so heartwarming to read. It shows that interfaith interaction can make things work harmoniously. How lovely that they know they can trust each other so much.
qnboudi , i have wondered for a long time whether Israel has thrown about chemicals in Gaza to kill them off slowly over time. I had hoped that I was wrong. Sadly, we have been seeing proof of this especially since the last offensive.
Israel is meticulously carrying out an ethnic cleansing genocide as the world watches on.
Oh that report is dreadful.
The funny thing is we are expected to sand on our heads watching all this and say 'poor Israel, so threatened by the barbaric Arabs' Surely barbarism is the use of such weapons and demonstrating in the streets to clamour for more death.
i can't remember where i read about the really high rates of breast cancer in palestine but it would fit with the kind of toxic weapons they've had rained on them. it was probably via a link on one of these threads.
had to search for the new thread as the other one got used up by all that bold and underlined shouting and victim blaming.
somewheresafe i think it was you who said about the erosion of civil rights continuing with events in america - which events were you referring to? i've not been keeping up with other news to be honest as i've been busy with personal life stuff.
thanks for the new thread harry.
Honey I was referring to the events in Ferguson in America where an unarmed black teen was shot and protestors then dispersed using tear gas.
Lots of people on twitter and fb comparing the police tactics to the disproportion of israel. I think David Bowie tweeted something along the lines of what kind of world is it when we have palestinians giving Americans advice about how to cope with tear gas. There's been a lot of debate about it. The police dealt with protestors in a heavy handed way wearing full military uniform. People in Ferguson have been waving palestinian flags.
Anyway, I digress. This tgought takes me back to the very first thread, if we had more interfaith cooperation then surely there would be peace in the region. Jews and Arabs have such a shared history and religious ethos. If they could get rid of hamas and all the right wing Israelis and put ordinary peace favouring citizens round the negotiation table the ceasefire would be permanent. I still believe that many in palestine want peace, whilst many in Israel want palestine gone and israel expanded again.
And another very important pre - requisite to enable change is that the US must stop financing, supporting and facilitating israel. The above article states that Americans like the rest of the world are disgusted with NuttyYahoo and israels illegality. This is one step towards peace. Interestingly the article mentions that the finance minister states that this is a worrying trend and must continue.
For peace to be achieved the condemnation must be continued. We all now know that only the US can call israel to account.
one of the ex idf soldier accounts (video linked back on one of these threads) talked about how america sends police to train in israel as they are the masters of crushing people. also that israel tested and developed the 'best' tear gas ever on palestinians and now sell it to countries around the world.
i keep saying it but it still bears repeating until everyone gets it - we are all palestinian.
see i don't think they're just testing weapons there, i think they're testing how to deal with dissent, how to cage populations, how to deal with civil war for want of a less dramatic term. it's not just weapons they're developing and selling onto western nations but strategies and important 'line blurring' like reclassifying civilians and testing the water on how much stomach people have to blowing up civilians when the right spin and division is applied.
we really need everyone to wake up. i'm so sad to hear that what is being learnt there is already being applied to protestors in the US. we're never that far behind the US so it would end up happening here too eventually.
israel seems like a training ground for the world. i often half jokingly say that in dystopian novel style we will all wake up one day to find a 50m high electrified fence around the greater london and it's airports and that entity will become Britain plc and if you're outside that fence you'll find there is no longer public transport, funding for public services or pretty much anything. i 'joke' about writing the novel (joke because i've never been disciplined enough to finish writing a novel). sadly it sometimes doesn't seem too far fetched watching what is going on in the world and our governments 'unconditional support' for what israel is doing to the palestinian people and the fact our countries send special forces there for training on hostile crowd control and the like.
my other big concern is that the numbers voting is going down and down and parties are making no real attempt to represent people and their interests in order to garner those votes so the actual mandate of government is becoming less and less itms - as in how few people have to vote for you and how few people do you have to actually have to represent before you become essentially a sham of democracy you know? and then what measures do you have to take to hold your power when only 10% say of the population (and bear in mind the babyboomers who are probably the main voters are gradually leaving the building) recognises you as legitimate power with a popular mandate?
i do think major changes are on the horizon and it doesn't seem far fetched that those changes will include a different and heavier handed approach to dealing with dissent and populist civilian movements.
and of course we have the ready made and well worn concept of 'terrorism' to deal with dissent groups or those that oppose forces in power and therefore we wouldn't have to be negotiated with and us and our schools and hospitals would be legitimate targets given our government has publicly declared it unconditionally supports such actions. how long in theory in this dystopian novel say would it be before the other 90% of the population behind that fence were considered terrorists - would protesting count? what about throwing stones at the fence? what about trying to dig tunnels? it wouldn't take much to be reclassified.
Have been reading this and the previous thread and have been even more alarmed by reports of the background to Israel's attacks and the fact that the world's collusion had been even deeper and more sinister than we originally thought. We seem to be going backwards to the colonialist era - the whole 'us' and 'them' mentality - and 'they' are all savages beyond morality so pretty much any method used against them.
I came back rather downcast from today's demo. The great British Police channelled our march down a few backstreets where there was no danger of the general public being able to hear or see us. I felt AGAIN as if I have no f*ing voice in this so-called free, democratic country.
There were 2 Jewish speakers at the rally (Jews for Justice for P) and they were brave and powerful in their message. Read aloud a response to those who placed 'that' Guardian ad. Also a speaker who was on the recent roof demo of the factory producing munitions. I applaud them and take solace in the fact that walking back from the demo someone stopped us and asked where it was taking place because they'd noticed the Free Palestine T-shirt DH was wearing.
However, I picked myself up and listened to some humane reasoned logic (see link below) and realised that it will of course take time to turn this tide of stupid shit. And now the momentum is building, it's not the time to give up. Sigh. The word will out, just more slowly than I can stand right now. There will be a tipping point. There will. There will. Really, there will.
If you're also feeling like the futility is too great, take heart from Miko Peled's inspirational talk (#2 on the list) at scgnews.com/idf-hamas-human-shield-manual-a-sloppy-forgery. He's allowed me to think "in my lifetime"!! Stick it out through the Qs & As, too.
Wow! The Jewish Chronicle has apologised for running the 'offensive' DEC advert calling for humanitarian donations to relieve suffering in Gaza. Is there no end to the inhumanity?
Sorry everyone, I asked MN to add a link to this thread but apparently they can't. Hopefully no one gets lost!
I'm catching up on Thread 5 but it's taking a while. Lots of shouting... anything interesting happen?
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