Part 7: Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[AndHarry]

Thread 1 - started when 3 Israeli boys were found murdered

Thread 2 - Operation Protective Edge

Thread 3 - Operation Protective Edge, the wider conflict and international involvement

Thread 4 - Operation Protective Edge and the different views in Israel and the wider international community

Thread 5 - in which Operation Protective Edge came to an end and the discussion continued

Thread 6 - themes of the conflict, what happens next and how ordinary people can get involved

Welcome to Thread 7.

halfdrunk

I would of course say "you focus on whatever you want, and I promise not to shoot you, or arrest you, or build barbed wire fences outside your meeting room to prevent you expressing yourself in public"

But your question makes no sense.

From its' inception, many rabbis warned of the potential dangers of Zionism and openly declared that all Jews loyal to G-d should stay away from it like one would from fire. Yeah, course. If those lived in Europe...or Yemen...or, well, most places Jews lived in, they also ended up dead or had their homes set on fire at some point. They made their opinions clear to their congregants and to the general public. Their message was that Zionism is a chauvinistic racist phenomenon which has absolutely naught to do with Judaism. They publicly expressed that Zionism would definitely be detrimental to the well being of Jews and Gentiles and that its effects on the Jewish religion would be nothing other than destructive. Further, it would taint the reputation of Jewry as a whole and would cause utter confusion in the Jewish and non-Jewish communities. Judaism is a religion. Judaism is not a race or a nationality. That was and still remains the consensus amongst the rabbis. You managed to quote from one of the most laughably stupid sites there is. Being Jewish is being a member of a covenant, whether by birth or conversion. Every rabbi says this. Or every actually Jewish rabbi says this. I'm sure Messianic Jews etc disagree.

We were given the Holy Land by G-d in order to be able to study and practice the Torah without disturbance and to attain levels of holiness difficult to attain outside of the Holy Land. We abused the privilege and we were expelled. That is exactly what all Jews say in their prayers on every Jewish festival, "Umipnay chatoenu golinu mayartsaynu" - "Because of our sins we were expelled from our land". well, we can see where this is going. This site is victim blaming....themselves...

We have been forsworn by G-d "not to enter the Holy Land as a body before the predestined time", "not to rebel against the nations", to be loyal citizens, not to do anything against the will of any nation or its honour, not to seek vengeance, discord, restitution or compensation; "not to leave exile ahead of time." On the contrary; we have to be humble and accept the yoke of exile. To violate the oaths would result in "your flesh will be made prey as the deer and the antelope in the forest," and the redemption will be delayed.

(Talmud Tractate Ksubos p. 111a).

To violate the oaths is not only a sin, it is a heresy because it is against the fundamentals of our Belief. Only through complete repentance will the Almighty alone, without any human effort or intervention, redeem us from exile. This will be after G-d will send the prophet Elijah and Moshiach who will induce all Jews to complete repentance. At that time there will be universal peace.

THE UNHEEDED CRY

All of the leading Jewish religious authorities of that era predicted great hardship to befall humanity generally and the Jewish People particularly, as a result of Zionism. To be a Jew means that either one is born to a Jewish mother or converts to the religion with the condition that he or she make no reservations with regard to Jewish Law. Unfortunately there are many Jews who have no inkling whatsoever as to the duties of a Jew. Many of them are not to blame, for in many cases they lacked a Jewish education and upbringing. But there are those who deliberately distort the teachings of our tradition to suit their personal needs. It is self understood that not just anyone has the right or the ability to make a decision regarding the philosophy or law of a religion. Especially matters in which that person has no qualification. It follows then that those individuals who "decided" that Judaism is a nationality are to be ignored and even criticized. It is no secret that the founders of Zionism had never studied Jewish Law nor did they express interest in our holy tradition. You support a site which says shit like this?

They openly defied Rabbinical authority and self-appointed themselves as leaders of the Jewish "nation". In Jewish history, actions like those have always spelled disaster. To be a Jew and show open defiance of authority or to introduce "amendment" or "innovation" without first consulting with those officially appointed as Jewish spiritual leaders is the ideal equation to equal catastrophe. You quoted from a site which says being a Jew and saying you're a Jew means you're at fault when you get killed for it. I wonder how these people treat the many Jews who were too frightened to say they were Jewish, or maybe only had a grandfather who was Jewish, but ended up dead anyway. Quoting from this site would be like quoting from a rape apologist site. I don't care if it has the most amazing poetry or the meaning of life on it, quoting from this site is supporting victim blaming and anti semitism.

One can not just decide to "modernize" ancient traditions or regulations. The spiritual leaders of contemporary Judaism better known as Orthodox rabbis have received ordination to judge and interpret matters pertaining to the Jewish faith. These rabbis have received their rights and responsibilities and form a link in the unbroken chain of the Jewish tradition dating all the way back to Moses who received the Torah from Almighty G-d Himself. It was these very rabbis who, at the time of the formation of the Zionist movement, foresaw the pernicious outcome that was without a doubt lined up. It was a man possessing outstanding Judaic genius, and a level of uncontested holiness who enunciated the Jewish stance regarding Zionism.

This charismatic individual, the Rebbe of Satmar, Grand Rabbi Joel Teitelbaum, did not mince any words. Straight to the point he called Zionism "the work of Satan", "a sacrilege" and "a blasphemy". He forbade any participation with anything even remotely associated with Zionism and said that Zionism was bound to call the wrath of G-d upon His people. He maintained this stance with unwavering bravery from the onset of Zionism whilst he was still in Hungary up until his death in New York where he lead a congregation numbering in the hundreds of thousands. Grand Rabbi Teitelbaum, scion to a legacy of holy mystics and Hassidic Masters unfortunately had his prediction fulfilled. We lost more than six million of our brothers, sisters, sons and daughters in a very horrible manner. This, more than six million holy people had to experience as punishment for the Zionist stupidity. The Holocaust, he wept, was a direct result of Zionism, a punishment from G-d.

IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL THE SAGES AND SAINTS IN EUROPE AT THE TIME OF HITLER'S RISE DECLARED THAT HE WAS A MESSENGER OF DIVINE WRATH, SENT TO CHASTEN THE JEWS BECAUSE OF THE BITTER APOSTASY OF ZIONISM AGAINST THE BELIEF IN THE EVENTUAL MESSIANIC REDEMPTION.

But it doesn't end there. It wasn't enough for the Zionist leaders to have aroused the wrath of G-d. They made a point of displaying abysmal contempt for their Jewish brothers and sisters by actively participating in their extermination. Just the idea alone of Zionism, which the rabbis had informed them would cause havoc, was not enough for them. They made an effort to pour fuel on an already burning flame. They had to incite the Angel of Death, Adolf Hitler. They took the liberty of telling the world that they represented World Jewry. Who appointed these individuals as leaders of the Jewish People?? It is no secret that these so-called "leaders" were ignoramuses when it came to Judaism. Atheists and racists too. These are the "statesmen" who organized the irresponsible boycott against Germany in 1933. This boycott hurt Germany like a fly attacking an elephant - but it brought calamity upon the Jews of Europe. Victim blaming. Again. Victim blaming you've supported by quoting from them. At a time when America and England were at peace with the mad-dog Hitler, the Zionist "statesmen" forsook the only plausible method of political amenability; and with their boycott incensed the leader of Germany to a frenzy. Genocide began, but these people, if they can really be classified as members of the human race, sat back. you support a site which happily dehumanises so many people. I honestly didn't think you were anti Semitic until now. You read through this shit and still thought it was a good idea to selectively post stuff through it? I like how this site ignores the pogroms/genocide going on in Eastern Europe even when Hitler was rising to power in another country.

"No Shame"

President Roosevelt convened the Evian conference July 6-15 1938, to deal with the Jewish refugee problem. The Jewish Agency delegation headed by Golda Meir (Meirson) ignored a German offer to allow Jews to emigrate to other countries for $250 a head, and the Zionists made no effort to influence the United States and the 32 other countries attending the conference to allow immigration of German and Austrian Jews. [Source] It was for the zionists to influence them? Which zionists? I had relatives in Israel in the 1920s and 30s. There were pogroms in Hebron and Jerusalem. Where were zionists in power? How could they influence powerful countries who were doing everything to keep Jews out?

On Feb 1, 1940 Henry Montor executive vice-President of the United Jewish Appeal refused to intervene for a shipload of Jewish refugees stranded on the Danube river, stating that "Palestine cannot be flooded with... old people or with undesirables." [Source] I need to verify this and will do later. Need to look up the UNA especially. But this is nothing worse than what every single other fucking country did.

Read "The Millions That Could Have Been Saved" by I.DombIt is an historical fact that in 1941 and again in 1942, the German Gestapo offered all European Jews transit to Spain, if they would relinquish all their property in Germany and Occupied France; on condition that: a) none of the deportees travel from Spain to Palestine; and b) all the deportees be transported from Spain to the USA or British colonies, and there to remain; with entry visas to be arranged by the Jews living there; and c) $1000.00 ransom for each family to be furnished by the Agency, payable upon the arrival of the family at the Spanish border at the rate of 1000 families daily. Yeah, historical fact. Interesting how none of my family knew about this. Interesting that it didn't fucking happen. The Germans didn't want to move the Jews, they wanted to exterminate them.

The Zionist leaders in Switzerland and Turkey received this offer with the clear understanding that the exclusion of Palestine as a destination for the deportees was based on an agreement between the Gestapo and the Mufti.

The answer of the Zionist leaders was negative, with the following comments: a) ONLY Palestine would be considered as a destination for the deportees. b) The European Jews must accede to suffering and death greater in measure than the other nations, in order that the victorious allies agree to a "Jewish State" at the end of the war. c) No ransom will be paid This response to the Gestapo's offer was made with the full knowledge that the alternative to this offer was the gas chamber. Yeah, right. This also smacks of the whole 'the Holocaust was a Jewish conspiracy' anti semitism.

These treacherous Zionist leaders betrayed their own flesh and blood. Zionism was never an option for Jewish salvation. Quite the opposite, it was a formula for human beings to be used as pawns for the power trip of several desperadoes. A perfidy! A betrayal beyond description!

In 1944, at the time of the Hungarian deportations, a similar offer was made, whereby all Hungarian Jewry could be saved. The same Zionist hierarchy again refused this offer (after the gas chambers had already taken a toll of millions).

The British government granted visas to 300 rabbis and their families to the Colony of Mauritius, with passage for the evacuees through Turkey. The "Jewish Agency" leaders sabotaged this plan with the observation that the plan was disloyal to Palestine, and the 300 rabbis and their families should be gassed. Sabotaged? How? You support such an anti Semitic site, do you?

Contonuation-

On December 17, 1942 both houses of the British Parliament declared its readiness to find temporary refuge for endangered persons. The British Parliament proposed to evacuate 500,000 Jews from Europe, and resettle them in British colonies, as a part of diplomatic negotiations with Germany. This motion received within two weeks a total of 277 Parliamentary signatures. On Jan. 27, when the next steps were being pursued by over 100 M.P.'s and Lords, a spokesman for the Zionists announced that the Jews would oppose the motion because Palestine was omitted. [Source]

On Feb. 16, 1943 Roumania offered 70,000 Jewish refugees of the Trans-Dniestria to leave at the cost of $50 each. This was publicized in the New York papers. Yitzhak Greenbaum, Chairman of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish Agency, addressing the Zionist Executive Council in Tel Aviv Feb. 18 1943 said, "when they asked me, "couldn't you give money out of the United Jewish Appeal funds for the rescue of Jews in Europe, I said NO! and I say again, NO!...one should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to secondary importance." On Feb. 24, 1943 Stephen Wise, President of the American Jewish Congress and leader of the American Zionists issued a public refusal to this offer and declared no collection of funds would seem justified. In 1944, the Emergency Committee to Save the Jewish People called upon the American government to establish a War Refugee Board. Stephen Wise testifying before a special committee of Congress objected to this proposal. [Source]

During the course of the negotiations mentioned above, Chaim Weizman, the first "Jewish statesman" stated: "The most valuable part of the Jewish nation is already in Palestine, and those Jews living outside Palestine are not too important". Weizman's cohort, Greenbaum, amplified this statement with the observation "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Europe". Havenf had the time to research, but doubt this fact. Having an ancestor who was very close to Weizmann, seeing as they were both from Belarus and both had family in Belarus, I sincerely doubt he said that. It would be like me calling people from Norfolk subhuman, when I've got relatives in Norfolk.

And then, after the bitterest episode in Jewish history, these Zionist "statesmen" lured the broken refugees in the DP camps to remain in hunger and deprivation, and to refuse relocation to any place but Palestine; only for the purpose of building their State. The camps after the liberation were shit. Jewish survivors were kept in shitty conditions and sometimes even held with the very guards who'd kept them there. Not Zionists who did this. Sorry.

In 1947 Congressman William Stration sponsored a bill to immediately grant entry to the United States of 400,000 displaced persons. The bill was not passed after it was publicly denounced by the Zionist leadership. [Source]

These facts are read with consternation and unbearable shame. How can it be explained that at a time during the last phase of the war, when the Nazis were willing to barter Jews for money, partly because of their desires to establish contact with the Western powers which, they believed, were under Jewish influence, how was it possible one asks that the self-proclaimed "Jewish leaders" did not move heaven and earth to save the last remnant of their brothers?

On Feb. 23, 1956 the Hon. J. W. Pickersgill, Minister for Immigration was asked in the Canadian House of Commons "would he open the doors of Canada to Jewish refugees". He replied "the government has made no progress in that direction because the government of Israel....does not wish us to do so". [Source]

In 1972, the Zionist leadership successfully opposed an effort in the United States Congress to allow 20,000-30,000 Russian refugees to enter the United States. Jewish relief organizations, Joint and HIAS, were being pressured to abandon these refugees in Vienna, Rome and other Europiean cities. [Source]
The pattern is clear!!! Humanitarian rescue efforts are subverted to narrow Zionist interests.

There were many more shocking crimes committed by these abject degenerates known as "Jewish statesmen", we could list many more example, but for the time being let anyone produce a valid excuse for the above facts.

Zionist responsibility for the Holocaust is threefold.

1. The Holocaust was a punishment for disrespecting The Three Oaths (see Talmud, Tractate Kesubos p. 111a). You supporting a site which said this? Which says the millions of people who died, Jewish and non Jewish, died because of the Jews?

1. Zionist leaders openly withheld support, both financially and otherwise, to save their fellow brothers and sisters from a cruel death. You are supporting a site which says 'Zionist leaders' allowed the Holocaust to continue, because they didn't pay Hitler loads of money, money he didn't want seeing as his end plan was to exterminate Jews, not just move them out of sight and mind.

1. The leaders of the Zionist movement cooperated with Hitler and his cohorts on many occasions and in many ways.

Zionists Offer a Military Alliance with Hitler

It would be wishful thinking if it could be stated that the leaders of the Zionist movement sat back and ignored the plight of their dying brothers and sisters. Not only did they publicly refuse to assist in their rescue, but they actively participated with Hitler and the Nazi regime. Early in 1935, a passenger ship bound for Haifa in Palestine left the German port of Bremerhaven. Its stern bore the Hebrew letter for its name, "Tel Aviv", while a swastika banner fluttered from the mast. And although the ship was Zionist owned, its captain was a National Socialist Party (Nazi) member. Really. Really. A Nazi associating themselves with a Jew? Not a very good Nazi, clearly.

Many years later a traveler aboard the ship recalled this symbolic combination as a "metaphysical absurdity". Absurd or not, this is but one vignette from a little-known chapter of history: The wide ranging collaboration between Zionism and Hitler's Third Reich. In early January 1941 a small but important Zionist organization submitted a formal proposal to German diplomats in Beirut for a military-political alliance with wartime Germany. The offer was made by the radical underground "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel", better known as the Lehi or Stern Gang. Its leader, Avraham Stern, had recently broken with the radical nationalist "National Military Organization" (Irgun Zvai Leumi - Etzel) over the group's attitude toward Britain, which had effectively banned further Jewish settlement of Palestine. Stern regarded Britain as the main enemy of Zionism.

This remarkable proposal "for the solution of the Jewish question in Europe and the active participation on the NMO [Lehi] in the war on the side of Germany" is worth quoting at some length:

"The NMO which is very familiar with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its officials towards Zionist activities within Germany and the Zionist emigration program takes the view that: 1.Common interests can exist between a European New Order based on the German concept and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as embodied by the NMO. 2.Cooperation is possible between the New Germany and a renewed, folkish-national Jewry. 3.The establishment of the Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, and bound by treaty, with the German Reich, would be in the interest of maintaining and strengthening the future German position of power in the Near East.

"On the basis of these considerations, and upon the condition that the German Reich government recognize the national aspirations of the Israel Freedom Movement mentioned above, the NMO in Palestine offers to actively take part in the war on the side of Germany.

"This offer by the NMO could include military, political and informational activity within Palestine and, after certain organizational measures, outside as well. Along with this the "Jewish" men of Europe would be militarily trained and organized in military units under the leadership and command of the NMO. They would take part in combat operations for the purpose of conquering Palestine, should such a front be formed.

"The indirect participation of the Israel Freedom Movement in the New Order of Europe, already in the preparatory stage, combined with a positive-radical solution of the European-Jewish problem on the basis of the national aspirations of the Jewish people mentioned above, would greatly strengthen the moral foundation of the New Order in the eyes of all humanity.

"The cooperation of the Israel Freedom Movement would also be consistent with a recent speech by the German Reich Chancellor, in which Hitler stressed that he would utilize any combination and coalition in order to isolate and defeat England".

(Original document in German Auswertiges Amt Archiv, Bestand 47-59, E224152 and E234155-58. Complete original text published in: David Yisraeli, The Palestinian Problem in German Politics 1889-1945 (Israel: 1947) pp. 315-317).

On the basis of their similar ideologies about ethnicity and nationhood, National Socialists and Zionists worked together for what each group believed was in its own national interests.

This is just one example of the Zionist movements' collaboration with Hitler for the purpose of possibly receiving jurisdiction over a minute piece of earth, Palestine.

And to top it all up, brainwashing!

How far this unbelievable Zionist conspiracy has captured the Jewish masses, and how impossible it is for any different thought to penetrate their minds, even to the point of mere evaluation, can be seen in the vehemence of the reaction to any reproach. With blinded eyes and closed ears, any voice raised in protest and accusation is immediately suppressed and deafened by the thousandfold cry: "Traitor," "Enemy of the Jewish People."

I just stopped commenting eventually. You knowingly quoted from such a disgusting site? You should be ashamed of yourself.

Especially as you're not Jewish, you won't agree with many of the points I'm sure. But by quoting it, or using it to prove a point, you've sunk to their level.

Why doesn't it make sense PigletJohn?

halfdrunk

why do you think your imaginary representative from the UK Jewish community should want my opinion?

Why do you postulate that she would want to concentrate on dispossessed and murdered Palestinians on that day more than on any other?

*did I read the right?

I can't even type properly.

PJ - As I have previously stated, it was in response to HoneyBadger's comment Tue 02-Dec-14 14:23:26. She said she worked with a Jewish leader who said we should focus on the Palestinians on Holocaust Memorial Day. Personally, I disagree, as I think events on this day should be for remembering the Holocaust, the victims of which had nothing to do with Israel's past and current treatment of the Palestinians.

he can focus on Palestinians if he wants to.

Like I said, I would promise not to shoot him, or arrest him, or build barbed wire fences outside his meeting room to prevent him expressing himself in public. Obviously he couldn't count on such tolerance if he moved to Israel. Perhaps that's his point.

Half drunk - quite agree about back and fwd looking - to both sides - as said in earlier post. But i dont think the 'inspirational' Israeli diplomat (George Deek) is on the same page.

Re Evian 1938, it's tough to get a detailed, clear message into a few lines, tho hands up, i'm worse than most for long posts... But I wasn't trying to make out the whole world was falling over themselves to take in persecuted jews: i was just expressing my disgust that the Zionists of the day were putting political ambition (or call it 'the greater good' if you prefer???) above the welfare of individuals, even several hundreds/thousands of individuals.

Since the mention of Zionists preventing emigration to places other than Palestine has drawn criticism on grounds of antisemitism, i note with interest Uri Avnery's response to a racist poem by Israeli singer songwriter Benayoun: www.avnery-news.co.il/english/ Seemingly 42% of Israeli society agrees with its racist sentiments, per channel 2 poll. Again giving the lie to the claims of Israel being a place of security and equality for all. Now then, had better get my tin hat on - no doubt going to get a barrage of abuse for that last "antisemitic" comment...

I agree the True Torah site is totally unsubstantiated.

But John Quigley, a respected international human rights legal expert and academic, stated: "the World Zionist Organisation refused to participate [in the Evian Conference in 1938], fearing that resettlement of Jews in other states would reduce the number available for Palestine".

According to Boas Evron: " the Zionist thing to do 'is belittle the [Evian] Conference as far as possible and to cause it to decide nothing...'". Evron also cited Ben-Gurion: "No rationalisation can turn the conference from a harmful to a useful one. What can and should be done is to limit the damage as far as possible."

In sum, there is evidence for zionist mistreatment of Jews. Plus see links above - State Dept official delegate to UN talking about Zionist pressure on Truman, Kimmerling, Grodzinsky & Zertal etc - none of whom are religious zealots.

Good morning.
I have read, skimmed the last few very, very long posts and I can see that all on this thread are eloquent but it also seems to me that no one is going to win an argument by quoting from the past at length to someone on the other side of that argument.
We all can waste our time with the past. Yes I know we have arrived at the present from the past but surely we now have to deal with the present.

Some brilliant posts on here, have just been catching up. So pleased to find that France has voted in favour of Palestine being recognised. Not surprised at Israel's anti-peace statement. Finally, European countries are seeing Israel for the aggressive bully that it is. The recognition of Palestine is gaining momentum.

Just wondering, is there anybody on here that actually believes that Israel is curerently a haven of equality for all? Are they the same people that want Israel to be recognised as a Jewish state , as is the vision of nutty yahu?

oh ffs - i didn't say i supported those sites i said there were jews who disagreed with zionism for various reasons and provided a couple of links to evidence this.

the jewish leader did not blame holocaust victims for palestine ffs - his point was that why memorialise historical holocaust, as if it were a thing in the past, when it is still going on. i saw his point. i feel the same about all of the remembrance day type stuff that is celebrated as if the slaughter of people through war is something in the past for us to look back on and feel proud that it is behind us and that people sacrificed themselves for what we have today. when what we have today is endless civilian slaughter and troops dying in illegal wars it makes no sense.

his point was that we all already knew about and remembered that holocaust and that what victims of it would have wanted was the tackling of current ethnic cleansing and stopping it still happening rather than an endless focus on the past. he also felt that it was disrespectful in the extreme to use their suffering as justication for making others suffer in similar ways today.

if you find the views of the those sites offensive let them know! as for victim blaming - well yes followers of religion believe they are punished for their sins and particularly those who focus on the old testament believe in a god who does punish and evict those who do not follow his dictates. are they meant to disagree with their god and holy book because zionism and the modern state of israel is more holy and sacred than G_d now?

Yruapita - no I do not think that Israel is a safe haven for all who live there, nor do I support Netanyahu's Jewish state bill. At least we may at least be getting rid of him next spring.

TheHoneyBadger: if you didn't agree with the statements on the True Torah Jews website, why did you quote from it at length in support of your argument that Zionists could have saved more Jews in WW2? If you had just wanted to show that a diverse range of Jewish anti-Zionist groups exist, a short list of their names would have sufficed.

Re. Holocaust Day. I have never been to any such event on this day so I don't know what format they take. I thought it was specifically about the Nazi Holocaust. But if the organisers wanted to widen the scope to incorporate other past and present atrocities and to look at what can be learned from history, then why just Palestine and not the many other atrocities going on around the world as well? If it was solely Palestine this would seem to me to conflate the actions of the State of Israel with world Jewry.

Just been looking up the UK Holocaust Memorial Day online; I see it also commemorates Cambodia, Rwanda, Bosnia and Darfur.

i didn't i quoted evidence (as i've already said) that some jews were against zionism and criticised the history of the movement and it's treatment of jewish people.

oh and again to chat to the strawman i never said it should be just palestine why not engage with what's actually said rather than just make shit up? do you actually think people can't read or see for themselves what was said or somethign? i just don't get it.

THB - FWIW, I do agree that we should try and raise awareness of and change what is going on around the world now as well as memorialising the past. Apologies if I misunderstood your comment (in which case I wasn't the only one to do so). When you wrote that the Jewish leader you worked with said "we should focus on Palestine" I thought this meant that he wanted Israel's actions in Palestine to be the focus of a Holocaust memorial event. I wouldn't have a problem with a statement along the lines of “As well as remembering the past, we should focus on other ongoing human rights abuses around the world, including those in Palestine, on Holocaust Memorial Day”.

THB - Now I am really confused. Here is your earlier statement: I recall links to historical documents and research showing zionist movement leaders actively blocking the evacuation of jews from nazi germany prior to WWII even though people were willing to take them and it was known what danger was lurking on the horizon because unless it was palestine and got them their political goals it wasn't good enough. i.e people died unnecessarily because zionists felt it more politically expedient for them to do so than for them to be saved in terms of achieving the claiming of israel.

You then posted some text from the True Torah Jews website.

Now you say you don't agree with the text you posted, but put it here as evidence that some Jews are anti-Zionist.

So, is the statement above an accurate reflection of your views? Or are you just saying that this is a view expressed by some anti-Zionists, but you don’t agree with it yourself?

If you agree that the True Torah Jews' claims are unsubstantiated, what historical documents and research have led you to the conclusion that Jewish refugees died unnecessarily because of the Zionist movement?

Please can you clarify.

i didn't say i agreed OR disagreed did i?

i did say i wasn't a 'supporter' of it as you last accused me of.

if you're genuinely interested i suggest you do the research - i'm more interested in the current day atrocities and war crimes going on personally.

To summarise the recent gist of this thread:

Those who are anti-Israel are saying that Zionists of the past were purposefully cruel to Jews and hindered their free migration, causing their death, also that there are lots of rabbinical groups who are anti-Zionist
....Surreal!
The first statement is unhinged at best and malicious at worst. As I've mentioned myself, there are fringe groups of ultra religious Jews that are anti-Zionist due to messianic beliefs. Jews are a tiny minority worldwide, and this is a minority within a minority, the numbers are vanishingly small. Why you think this adds weight the Palestinian plight is beyond me.

You're tying yourselves up in knots by rubbishing anything to do with Israel. I struggle to see how this line of enquiry helps Palestinians and the peace process, or is in any way relevant, although I do quite see why those same people seek to demonise and delegitimise Israel on every conceivable count.

As I've said before - guys, you can support the Palestinians and campaign for a fair deal for them without nasty slanders, ludicrous conspiracy theories, name-calling and demonising the Jews/Zionists/Israelis.

In the UK, Holocaust Memorial Day commemorates victims of other genocides around the world, e.g Rwanda, and uses the example of the victims of the Nazi holocaust as a lesson against the worst consequences of intolerance.

I just thought I would leave this here. There is a huge billboard with this qoute in Johannesburg every time I drove passed it made my heart smile.

THB - you and QnBoudi (although QnBoudi's links are much more informative and plausible) were the ones to bring up the subject of the historical faults of Zionism on this thread. You can't post links to offensive and unsubstantiated claims or make controversial statements and then expect people to not comment on them. I also don't know how you can make such a statement whilst also admitting you are not very interested in researching whether or not it has any basis in fact.

As for doing my own research, whilst I haven't yet read Alison Weir's book, I have re-read the relevant chapters in the books I have at home (by Martin Gilbert and Eugene Rogan) that cover the period leading up to the establishment of the State of Israel. I have also tried to do some research online (see my earlier comment on the Hansard transcript from a date mentioned by the TTJ). While Zionism certainly has had and continues to have its faults I haven't yet read anything that would back up your statement.

Anyway, to move the thread on, I repeat: Regardless of the rights and wrongs of how Israel came about, it is here now and people need to find a way forward to meet the needs of everyone in the region.

thanks for posting that TheXxed.

sergeantmajor "To summarise the recent gist of this thread"

Your opinion appears to be predicated on your assumption that the people on this thread who are opposed to inhumane treatment, are in your warped view "anti-Israel"

This is not true.

Perhaps there is a need for a separate thread about the past so that those who want to can bang on and quote pages of "proof" at each other.
Hopefully THIS thread is about where we are NOW.
Or perhaps another thread is needed for those of us who wish to address the present and not the past.